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Shame Upon Schools

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The only thing that is clear is 15 schools dont want WW plus the phone isnt ringing from other leagues wanting them to join! why maybe the AD is a jerk maybe they dont follow the rules or they cant get officials to work the games. Who knows but I think bringing up race is going to hurt this school in more ways than just sports.

If any of this is true, why is ECC so afraid of saying something? ANYTHING, except denials? Do you mean to tell me there are no officials at WW games? Really? They won't schedule them because of the AD? Is he the ONLY guy hard to work with in SW Ohio? What else have you got?

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I guess the question is, and you are not an idiot, is what conclusion have YOU reached based on the information presented in the article, letter, and explanations by WWWarrior? ECC isn't talking so we have nothing from them except denials. The entire leadership of WWCS agrees with Dr. Holden's version of events. Where have they gone wrong? What evidence did they not analyze?

None.

How could I possiibly reach any conclusion without being in on the meetings that were held in order to reach this decision ? Nasbe says it's race, I say ok, let's see the facts. So far, none have been forthcoming. I've read everthing posted here, and in the paper, looked at the statistics, and have a hard time believing that race in itself is the reason. At this point, it seems to me, it's all conjecture. I just want to know, now that WW has made the charge of racism, what facts are you bringing to bear to make the case ?

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what facts are you bringing to bear to make the case ?

Seriously Oddball? Didn't you see that statistics? Isn't it obvious?

Dr. Camille Nasbe, Winton Woods Superintendent: "WHY DO YOU THINK WINTON WOODS HAS BEEN EXCLUDED? I have no idea. DO YOU THINK IT'S RACE? I think it could be. It certainly looks that way when you look at the statistics."

It's all in the stats man, it's all in the stats. I just hope to God they have more than that to make such an accusation.

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Seriously Oddball? Didn't you see that statistics? Isn't it obvious?

Dr. Camille Nasbe, Winton Woods Superintendent: "WHY DO YOU THINK WINTON WOODS HAS BEEN EXCLUDED? I have no idea. DO YOU THINK IT'S RACE? I think it could be. It certainly looks that way when you look at the statistics."

It's all in the stats man, it's all in the stats. I just hope to God they have more than that to make such an accusation.

Winton Woods won a football state championship in 2009. This issue is about sports leagues, right? Why would anyone NOT want to play the best? Are you talking about something OTHER than sports?

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Winton Woods won a football state championship in 2009. This issue is about sports leagues, right? Why would anyone NOT want to play the best? Are you talking about something OTHER than sports?

blink.gif

My question is "is there any way in hell Greenhills can remove itself from the WWCSD once and for all, especially given the fact that they just killed/destroyed any possibility of this community being desireable to prospective families/homebuyers?"

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Maybe I'm the idiot here

Hey quit hornin' in on my racket! biggrin.gif

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Dr. Camille Nasbe, Winton Woods Superintendent: "WHY DO YOU THINK WINTON WOODS HAS BEEN EXCLUDED? I have no idea. DO YOU THINK IT'S RACE? I think it could be. It certainly looks that way when you look at the statistics."

Correlation proves causation, doesn't it? No other answer is possible.

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I've found some other boards similar to Junedale where this is being discussed. They seem to be from the east side, and the conversation there is a little less heated because the folks talking are not from WWCSD. They are talking about why WW isn’t part of the new league, and there are lots of other possible reasons being discussed. These include: geography, the butt whuppings given in football and basketball, the lack of competitiveness in other sports especially at the frosh & jv levels, a suggestion that for the money sports where gate receipts are a big deal (football and basketball) that Winton Woods doesn't travel well, that WW doesn't quite pull its weight in terms of involvement -- with a reference to the FAVC track meet hosted here where visiting team parents had to help run the meet due to lack of WW volunteers. There were a few references to unpleasant fan experiences, but not many and that didn't seem to be a focal issue where I was reading.

Those other boards have active dialogues about travel, competitiveness at different levels and for different sports, finances, all kinds of things. They see plenty of other issues that are reasonably related to the way this played out that have nothing to do with race. There's no indication they're thinking about race at all. That fixation seems to be our local specialty.

We don't know what the other AD'S were thinking. My view is that that is WW's fault: the district pretty clearly wasn't proactive in initiating dialogue over the many years when they were in the FAVC, and they didn't build strong strong intra-conference relationships with those other schools. That's the only explanation for the a situation where they could get so badly surprised about these other schools planning to move on without them. I see that as an administrative failure on our part on a very important issue.

The communications breakdown didn't begin a few months ago. What we're seeing now is the result of WW not doing enough to know what was really going on for the years prior. Complaining that we weren't invited to meetings that were taking place to implement decisions that had been brewing for quite a while utterly misses the point. We left ourselves in a position to be surprised, and that's our own fault.

PHil said it all in just a few words: someone around here dropped the ball.

And if there has been some reluctance on the part of the other schools to discuss some of these issues, in particular with regard to fan experience, fan support and the like, could it be that they were afraid that anytime they brought anything up that could be critical of WW that they'd get accusations of racism thrown in their faces? Who around here that has ever said anything critical about the district can't relate to that? The district sure seems to be fixated on race. You can't talk about anything around here without race being brought into it one way or another. That unfortunate trend is clearly going to accelerate now.

Because this district can't ever admit its own mistakes or issues, and because there's no one here capable of finding an alternative solution, they've decided to let the accusations fly. Same old story. This district's "leadership" reminds me of Blues Brothers Belushi on his knees in the sewer explaining to the chick who played princess leia why he couldn’t make it to their wedding. Car broke down, plague of locusts, whatever, the bottom line is always the same: IT’S NOT MY FAULT!

Yeah, it probably is. Again. And this time your excuse is going to make things worse they were before. That's your fault, too.

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I've found some other boards similar to Junedale where this is being discussed. They seem to be from the east side, and the conversation there is a little less heated because the folks talking are not from WWCSD. They are talking about why WW isn’t part of the new league, and there are lots of other possible reasons being discussed. These include: geography, the butt whuppings given in football and basketball, the lack of competitiveness in other sports especially at the frosh & jv levels, a suggestion that for the money sports where gate receipts are a big deal (football and basketball) that Winton Woods doesn't travel well, that WW doesn't quite pull its weight in terms of involvement -- with a reference to the FAVC track meet hosted here where visiting team parents had to help run the meet due to lack of WW volunteers. There were a few references to unpleasant fan experiences, but not many and that didn't seem to be a focal issue where I was reading.

Those other boards have active dialogues about travel, competitiveness at different levels and for different sports, finances, all kinds of things. They see plenty of other issues that are reasonably related to the way this played out that have nothing to do with race. There's no indication they're thinking about race at all. That fixation seems to be our local specialty.

We don't know what the other AD'S were thinking. My view is that that is WW's fault: the district pretty clearly wasn't proactive in initiating dialogue over the many years when they were in the FAVC, and they didn't build strong strong intra-conference relationships with those other schools. That's the only explanation for the a situation where they could get so badly surprised about these other schools planning to move on without them. I see that as an administrative failure on our part on a very important issue.

The communications breakdown didn't begin a few months ago. What we're seeing now is the result of WW not doing enough to know what was really going on for the years prior. Complaining that we weren't invited to meetings that were taking place to implement decisions that had been brewing for quite a while utterly misses the point. We left ourselves in a position to be surprised, and that's our own fault.

PHil said it all in just a few words: someone around here dropped the ball.

And if there has been some reluctance on the part of the other schools to discuss some of these issues, in particular with regard to fan experience, fan support and the like, could it be that they were afraid that anytime they brought anything up that could be critical of WW that they'd get accusations of racism thrown in their faces? Who around here that has ever said anything critical about the district can't relate to that? The district sure seems to be fixated on race. You can't talk about anything around here without race being brought into it one way or another. That unfortunate trend is clearly going to accelerate now.

Because this district can't ever admit its own mistakes or issues, and because there's no one here capable of finding an alternative solution, they've decided to let the accusations fly. Same old story. This district's "leadership" reminds me of Blues Brothers Belushi on his knees in the sewer explaining to the chick who played princess leia why he couldn’t make it to their wedding. Car broke down, plague of locusts, whatever, the bottom line is always the same: IT’S NOT MY FAULT!

Yeah, it probably is. Again. And this time your excuse is going to make things worse they were before. That's your fault, too.

I believe that you have set up a strawman and then knocked it down. My opinion. If ECC had all of these issues, what is preventing them from making these statements? If it's painful to WW but true, who could deny it? If they were so fearful of the race question why didn't they speak up? Why did they exclude WW from the new league discussions? If it isn't race, and ECC knew it could be an issue, why didn't they deal with it face on? If it was about all the things you mentioned why was nothing said by ECC to WW? At this point, Dr. Holden told us her side of the story and presented facts as she sees them. ECC says nothing and is letting everyone ELSE to try to figure what they did and what they meant. Why are they afraid to speak up? I'm getting the sense that we are blaming the victim, in this case WW athletics, and by extension ALL of WWCS and their communities, and not the perpetrators, in this case, ECC officials.

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I believe that you have set up a strawman and then knocked it down. My opinion. If ECC had all of these issues, what is preventing them from making these statements? If it's painful to WW but true, who could deny it? If they were so fearful of the race question why didn't they speak up? Why did they exclude WW from the new league discussions? If it isn't race, and ECC knew it could be an issue, why didn't they deal with it face on? If it was about all the things you mentioned why was nothing said by ECC to WW? At this point, Dr. Holden told us her side of the story and presented facts as she sees them. ECC says nothing and is letting everyone ELSE to try to figure what they did and what they meant. Why are they afraid to speak up? I'm getting the sense that we are blaming the victim, in this case WW athletics, and by extension ALL of WWCS and their communities, and not the perpetrators, in this case, ECC officials.

What I don't understand is that with all of these other potential issues out there, how people can be so adamant that the only relevant factor is racism.

Why does the ECC have a duty to inform WW of anything? Why wasn't WW so closely tied to these schools that they knew that something as big as this was on the horizon or, more importantly, of the issues that led to it -- whatever they may be? Why is it someone else's job to make sure WW is well-informed, or that they have productive working relationships?

You talk about blaming the victim: The Winton Woods City School District is not a victim. Failure to do your job well does not make you a victim. That rush to claim victim status stands behind the lack of accountability that is the defining characteristic of this district.

We'll hear about how the kids are victims, and maybe they are: but they are victims of the failures of the leaders of their own district, not of some AD from Glen Este. And encouraging them to think of themselves of victims would be, is, just another great disservice provided by this district.

Finally, Holden just signed the letter. This smells like a Pennycuff operation through and through.

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Believe what you want, but everyone is on board with this interpretation including, Dr. Holden, Dr. Nasbe, Mr. Pennycuff, and WWWarrior. Go ahead and include the AD and other administration. I don't think Mr. Pennycuff controls the hearts and minds of all of these individuals. Did ECC officials have an obligation to WW in this matter? Why, yes, I believe they did. These schools have been competing for 15 years and suddenly WW is excluded? It's not like they don't know one another or haven't done business together. Why shut out WW now? Why make a deal IN SECRET with some of the very schools WW has competed with? Not even a courtesy explanation? If you read Dr. Holden's letter, WW looked at every factor available to them, they didn't jump to conclusions. They were stonewalled when they asked pertinent questions and were given a number of nonsensical responses. The Wilmington thing and the Harrison connection just make ECC look more and more secretive and manipulative and exclusionary. I think ECC smells really bad on this one, and I do think that WW is a victim.

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With regards to "dropping the ball", EQ stated:

"This actually is old news in a way. We knew before Christmas about the "two leagues" forming and where Winton Woods fit into the puzzle. (We didn't) Word leaked out to the kids and they took it in stride.. as well as teenagers take anything in stride. We waited while things ran their course."

Why wasn't Winton Woods aggressive in their actions then? Why wait to cry out racism?

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Believe what you want, but everyone is on board with this interpretation including, Dr. Holden, Dr. Nasbe, Mr. Pennycuff, and WWWarrior.

You mean those who have brought this district so far and have gotten us to this point? Based on how this is all panning out I would say "ask what they would do, and then do the opposite".

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With regards to "dropping the ball", EQ stated:

"This actually is old news in a way. We knew before Christmas about the "two leagues" forming and where Winton Woods fit into the puzzle. (We didn't) Word leaked out to the kids and they took it in stride.. as well as teenagers take anything in stride. We waited while things ran their course."

Why wasn't Winton Woods aggressive in their actions then? Why wait to cry out racism?

You haven't read Dr. Holden's letter have you? In it, it is very clear she was willing to follow the parameters set forth by ECC in spite of their funny business since August. Only later did she conclude, with the concurrence of other WW officials of her assertion that race was the deciding factor in being shut out of ECC. Read the letter!

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"It is not racist, but it is about RACE."

The district is all bent out of shape about being excluded. They claim they are being excluded because of race.

that's not racism? perhaps the schools accused of being racist should be informed of this new softer definition

Did anyone think this through before dropping this publicity bomb? I see every possible outcome as a big loser for everyone that has anything to do with the WWCSD. What is the desired outcome?

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You haven't read Dr. Holden's letter have you? In it, it is very clear she was willing to follow the parameters set forth by ECC in spite of their funny business since August. Only later did she conclude, with the concurrence of other WW officials of her assertion that race was the deciding factor in being shut out of ECC. Read the letter!

Yeah, I've read it several times and if the outcome wasn't in favor of WW they were going to boldly cry out racism, no other possible explanation. This entire fiasco has STUPID written all over it and our kids (the one's they claim to love) are going to pay the price. Instead of constantly defending this administration, hold them accountable for their actions; we're at Continuous Improvement, the Middle School is on Academic Watch, they just accused several districts of being racist based on "statistics" and most every district in Cincinnati has turned their backs on the WWCSD. Is this really what you want for your kids? When is "enough" enough for you people?

If you really cared for these kids, you'd ask for an immediate change of leadership. And, Greenhills Council/City Manager needs to step up and say that "we do not support these claims without concrete evidence. The decisions made by the Winton Woods City School District should not be a reflection on the Village of Greenhills".

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Dr. Camille Nasbe, Winton Woods Superintendent: "WHY DO YOU THINK WINTON WOODS HAS BEEN EXCLUDED? I have no idea. DO YOU THINK IT'S RACE? I think it could be. It certainly looks that way when you look at the statistics."

It's all in the stats man, it's all in the stats.

For WWSD statistics only count when they want them to. When the school is rated continuous improvement, according to WWSD, the statistics are misleading. But when we need the statistics to back our case, statistics do not lie.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too! Which way is it?

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Well, GOODNESS GRACIOUS! I leave for a couple of days and this happens!

I'm logging out of this conversation. This one is definitely a neighborhood divider.

"Can't we all just get along?"

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It's all in the stats man, it's all in the stats.

For WWSD statistics only count when they want them to. When the school is rated continuous improvement, according to WWSD, the statistics are misleading. But when we need the statistics to back our case, statistics do not lie.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too! Which way is it?

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You haven't read Dr. Holden's letter have you? In it, it is very clear she was willing to follow the parameters set forth by ECC in spite of their funny business since August. Only later did she conclude, with the concurrence of other WW officials of her assertion that race was the deciding factor in being shut out of ECC. Read the letter!

The news about the two leagues was PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE for some time. Winton Woods being left out has been public knowledge since, I want to say, November.

The "word on the street" was basically for us to withhold judgement until some questions could be asked in a professional setting. If Dr. Holden came out and ascribed this to a racial issue immediately.. then... yeah. Dr. Holden would be jumping the gun. However, it has been at least three months and the answers, to this point, do not add up.

Dr. Holden's letter is out there. The point has been made. I eagerly await to hear what the ECC's response is. To level a claim at this level certainly was not something that, I'm sure, any administrator would ever want to do. For one thing, it impacts your professional reputation. Trust me. Dr. Holden has enough to do.

On the other hand, do you just stay silent and allow other schools to plot in the demise of the school that YOU have worked hard to improve?

The choice probably was a no-brainer... even though the fallout was predictable.

But, WW went through the hoops and asked questions. It would appear that they tried to work with the ECC to find out their thinking.

----

At the end of the day, WW does not have a league for our STUDENTS that participate in sports in 2013. BUT with the state budget and a probable ballot challenge to Senate Bill 5, I suspect that a lot of schools are going to be without sports in a couple of years anyway. The thought that you keep sports programs at the same time you are cutting teachers and closing schools is NOT going to sit well with most parents and voters. More kids ride the bus than get scholarship offers for college. That's just how I am reading these message boards across the state.

A lot can happen in a year.

Remember, we came one election away from having no sports program at all.

Stay tuned. I think that this discussion is going to turn on a dime real soon.

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Seriously Oddball? Didn't you see that statistics? Isn't it obvious?

Dr. Camille Nasbe, Winton Woods Superintendent: "WHY DO YOU THINK WINTON WOODS HAS BEEN EXCLUDED? I have no idea. DO YOU THINK IT'S RACE? I think it could be. It certainly looks that way when you look at the statistics."

It's all in the stats man, it's all in the stats. I just hope to God they have more than that to make such an accusation.

Statistics can be abused to lend support to an untrue conclusion, either by ignorance or by design!

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"it has been at least three months and the answers, to this point, do not add up.'

this is the point where you stray from reality. The answers don't add up, so you draw your own conclusions.

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Well, I don't know Dazed. I guess you could come to a lot of conclusions about why things are the way that they are. We all try to explain things based on how we see things.

Look at the Ryan Widmer trial.

There were a lot of possible reasons why his wife died, but ultimately the jury (in the 3rd and current trial) found him guilty. At some point, folks have to come to terms on things. Perhaps there were a lot of other explanations, but the one that the jury bought was that Ryan Widmer caused his death. Off to prison he went. I was not on the jury, but I believed he should have been found NOT GUILTY. I didn't think that the prosecutor ever met the buden of proof... even I think SOMETHING happened.. but I didn't think that there was enough to send Ryan Widmer to prison... the "suprise" witness sort of speaks to that. My neighbor, on the other hand was pretty close to Sarah Widmer (he was one of her teachers at Edgewood) and takes the view that he is guilty as charged. No question.

Dr. Holden (with what I presume was the blessing of the higher ups) came to the conclusion that race was the overriding factor in the ECC's decision to offer the 8th position to Harrison instead of us... who completed their "application". Obviously, not everybody shares that view. However, I wouldn't say that there is no basis in reality for what was said. The ECC has not come out and answered the specific charges that were made... haven't for months. It would be nice if they could offer SPECIFICS that were credible. It has to be frustrating.

I think that this is going to take many twists and turns. The primary concern of the WW brass is being able to play in a sports league in 2012. I believe that there will be more than a few opps. as the state will put the squeeze on local districts. John Kasich is likely to take a butcher knife to all of the budgets, beyond what has been reported already.

Suffice it to say, these are not the salad days for teaching HS students.

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Eq - I would urge you to not muddy the issue with political comments about Kasich and the financing of schools. They are two entirely different issues.

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