Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

Discipline Problems at WW High School


36 posts in this topic

Posted (edited) · Report post

The Winton Woods High School has serious discipline problems. This is born out by Forest Park Police Records. I have heard that many substitute teachers go there one day and refuse to return because of discipline problems in the class rooms. It is little wonder the State grads are so bad.

What follows is statistics supplied by the Forest Park Police Department pursuant to a Public Records request.

Dear Mr. ,

 

I have responded to your request for public records by indicating the answer in a red font. If I can be of any further assistance please let me know.

 

 

Captain William D. Arns

Assistant Chief of Police

Forest Park Police Department

1203 West Kemper Road

Forest Park, Ohio 45240

Office-513-595-5220



To: Captain William D. Ams, Assistant Chief, Forest Park Police Department




Dear Sir


In regard to the Winton Woods High School, the following information is requested for the Calendar Years 2011,2012,2013,2014 and the period from January 1, 2016 to April 1, 2016.

A. How many times  was the Police Department required to respond to incidents at the Winton Woods High School?

2011- 94

2012- 84

2013- 63

2014-66

2015-66 (previously provided on 3-21-16)

2016-16 (as of 4-14-16)


B. How many of those calls were in response to fights or other disciplinary issues at the High School ?

2011-21

2012-16

2013-9

2014-14

2015-20  (previously provided on 3-21-16)

2016-11 (as of 4-14-16)



C. How many students were referred to Hamilton County Juvenile Court as the result of issues at the High School?

2011-57

2012-60

2013-29

2014-35

2015-27  (previously provided on 3-21-16)

2016-6 (as of 4-14-16)

 

D. How many incidents were reported by the School Resource Officer for Winton Woods High School ?

2011-38

2012-50

2013-49

2014-48

2015-47  (previously provided on 3-21-16)

2016-11 (as of 4-14-16)

Thank You for your assistance.
A reply by email is sufficient.


 

As can be seem the statistics are not good. The Board of Education had better get involved quickly.

It is obvious that the environment at the High School, with a very few exceptions, is neither academic or safe.

 

Cicero
 

 
Edited by Cicero
grammar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

These statistics may look bad, but are they actually bad?  I guess what I'm asking is this:  How do these statistics compare to the state averages and national averages?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Dear Gambier Gal,

Who really cares what the National Average is?  I am concerned for the Students  of the Winton Woods School System where my taxes go.  Also please note that these are only statistics from  the High School.  Not very long ago we had a Greenhills Police Office injured who needed medical treatment when responding to a call from the Middle School.

No matter how you look at it,  if you are student or have a student in the system is a matter of grave concern.

Sincerely,

The Mad Botanist

Edited by Mad Botanist
grammar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

My point is - is this typical?  There have always been fights in school, even decades ago when I was in school.  Kids are not always angels.  So I just wanted to see if this is in the range of normal or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Gambier Gal

Your attempt to minimize the gravity of the situation is ludicrous. You are attempting to defend the indefensible.  if you choose to ignore the obvious seriousness of the situation one could conclude you are living in the land of Myopia.

The statistics reported by the Forest Park Police do not include the many incidents that are handled "in house: with no formal report being made.

There is no way that the multitude of calls to the Police Department could be considered "Normal".

If you want to find out what is happening in other systems, please feel free to contact the police departments that handle those systems.

There is no way one can put a positive spin on the statistics reported by the Forest Park Police Department.

If you have a child in the system, you should be concerned rather than trying to minimize the problems.

Cicero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Cicero,  your response is offensive.  I merely asked a question - requested more data so I can analyze the situation further - and you have the nerve to say that seeking additional information is "ludicrous" and that I am "ignoring the obvious seriousness of the situation" and am trying to "minimize the problems."  So if anyone is intelligent enough to ask for additional data in order to put the data you provide in perspective, your response is to insult them?

If you've paid attention to my posts, you know that I can hardly be accused of minimizing problems.  In fact, I have been accused of bringing up too many problems because I ask so many questions.  I have the same response to the people who accuse me of "complaining too much" when I ask questions as I have to you, who accuse me of "trying to defend the indefensible" simply by asking for additional information - anyone who resorts to name-calling when someone is simply asking for information comes across as an insecure bully who is scared that they lack the data to back up their argument and/or the ability to have an intelligent discussion about it.  Otherwise, you would have matter-of-factly and civilly provided the information and we could have continued our discussion like a couple adults.

The funny thing is that initially I was somewhat on your side - I have witnessed discipline problems at the high school and have even mentioned some on this forum - but I just wanted the facts rather than going by my personal observations and anecdotal evidence of what my child has observed.  But when you try to silence people who are simply asking questions by attacking them personally rather than addressing the questions, you lose my support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

G.Gal

Whether you support me or not is immaterial, the horrible statistics speak for themselves. Sorry you felt my response was offensive, but it is still my opinion that you were and are, trying to minimize a very serious situation and it is still my opinion.

Cicero

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

How is asking for more information trying to minimize it?  Were you trying to minimize it, or trying to overstate it, by simply requesting the data from the police department?  No, you were trying to ascertain the facts.  That's what I'm trying to do.  You lose credibility when you don't have the facts and have only your "opinion."

No statistics speak for themselves in a vacuum.  You have to have a context to put it in.  Are these statistics above or below the average?  You still haven't answered that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Do your own homework and research what the State and National averages are, if you are that curious.

I will add nothing further to this topic.

 

Cicero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

You're the one making the claim, so the burden is on you, not me.  I'm not trying to either prove or disprove you. 

Your numbers are meaningless without context, so if you are unwilling to provide some state and national averages (shouldn't take you nearly as long to find those as it did to make a public records request), then I take it that you don't like those numbers - they must not support your claim.

Case closed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

So you went after these public records to prove how bad things are, but from a quick look at the statistics, things seem to be IMPROVING.  Interesting.  

When I was a junior at Greenhills High School - a place that people around here will tell you was an educational utopia, where we were all skipping around through a field of wildflowers, shitting rainbows - a student was stabbed, right in the middle of the school day, in the hallway right outside the library.  Fights were a regular occurrence. Kids were suspended for using drugs on school property during school events.  When My dad was at GHS, back in the 70's, there were fights, drug busts, sex.  In fact, I would go as far as to say there was MORE of that stuff in the 70's, but less hysteria about it back then.  To be clear - GHS was great, I have amazing, fond memories from my time there, but kids were stupid, even back then.

I, too, would wonder how these compare to state and national averages.  My guess is they are worse than some places and better than others.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

In looking at student discipline I don't believe Winton Woods is that far off from other schools in the city.

 However the upper management of the school is very liberal and prefers to analyze what the teacher is doing right or wrong versus punishing the student or maybe even looking at policies  that are largely unworkable but remain on the books because they are popular with the taxpayers. This is not a secret nor am I saying something controversial. Almost any teacher that is taught there in the last few years will probably say the same thing. It's a model that is used in a lot of urban high schools throughout the United States. To be fair ...the people that run the school are walking a tightrope the only people they could fire are... in fact ... the teachers. 

A few years ago they showed us statistics where one of the discipline categories was way down and they attributed this drop to students doing a better job. A lot of the teachers had a good laugh because the real reason why that statistic dropped was because we stopped writing referrals on it Sims every time the people did they got questioned on it ....but this was maybe six years ago. It was frustrating because it appeared that the teachers were in a no-win situation sometimes. That was just my experience but it may explain a little bit about why things are the way they are and that starts at the top from the school board setting the tone in a way that it's clear to everybody that works there.

I don't know that I would look at statistics. too much either way some of it may be inflated and some of it may be underestimated because of reporting or coding. The best way to see if the school is safe is to talk to some of the people that work there and get a sense of it.  I always felt safe at the high school and I felt largely the place ran the way it should but it certainly wasn't perfect and there's room for improvement on all sides I'm sure.  In speaking with my friends that work in schools throughout the city the problems that go on are no different than any other school but how they are dealt with by management varies according to the philosophy of the management.  Some issue Swift and severe punishment others chalk it up to being culture.

Edited by equalizer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Without trivializing the importance of discipline within the school, I wonder how Cicero would further pervert and twist the conversation had there been little or NO police calls to the school for any required issues?  I, too, do not condone poor student behavior yet Cicero seems to relish, with great delight, to make any argument or take any stance that belittles the children of our district.  I would also agree with SOS that Cicero's post is making the case reflecting a trend toward improvement of his questions regarding police calls and discipline. When I was in school, oddly enough, there were fights and I wonder if the levels tolerated back then were more forgiving than today's standards which tend to accelerate infractions to greater levels.  

To offer constructive, beneficial ideas is most welcomed; however,  I often find myself contemplating what motivates Cicero's purposefully destructive and degrading intent toward our school district. At one time, this behavior was loosely disguised as a "desire to advocate" for students, but alas we know better... Guess this is where the old adage "with friends like that, who needs enemies" originates. 

Edited by paula

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

EQ,

I understand that different strokes for different folks syndrome.   But don’t you agree that there should be one and only one aim? “ THE IMPROVEMENT OF ACADEMICS at Winton Woods District”?  It does not matter how is it done, but should be dealt with uniformity?  Discipline should be dealt the same way.  It should not be dealt in a different way with different  students  and not be used against the teacher who is trying to teach.

I have now spent 3 weeks at Princeton HS.  In fact former “red shirts” from Winton Woods HS are providing the supervision in the halls and cafeteria round the clock.  No one is sitting down and I have not seen one area where I have been that had not had someone walking it.  Prior to being at Princeton I was several weeks from September on at Finneytown HS where even the resource officer from Springfield Township patrolled the hallways. 

The diversity in either of those schools was not any different than at Winton Woods HS.  Yet I have not witnessed a fight but only the steady removal of students to be disciplined by the various assistant principals and  removal of phones where and when not permitted.

I cannot believe that still there are citizens who believe that there are NO fights at Winton Woods.  I was there one Friday when there were 3.  Now, were all three processed the same?  I don’t know.  Were those fights recorded the same way?  I don’t know.  I am not privy to that kind of information. One thing I can tell you NO ONE can tell me that I did not see what I saw.  I can also tell you that I was in class at Winton Woods around ten a.m. when I called for removal of 2 students who were so belligerent that even refused to go to the office with the “redshirt”.

The irony of all this is that the same afternoon Mr. Berte, newly appointed Board of Education Member, went to visit classes at Winton Woods High School.  Was he alone?  No.  He was escorted by the Superintendent and the Principal.  They stayed in my class for 5 to 7 minutes at the most.  Do you think that he had a true representation of what was going on in the same classroom at ten in the morning?  (With 2 teachers, 1 superintendent and 1 principal at 1:30 and students testing that afternon?)  I doubt it very much if he was aware of the discipline problems that transpired early that day.

It is my impression that there are some Board Members that are in denial of how serious the discipline problems are, which unfortunately means that there will be no real push to correct the problem.  

I branched out to other schools in the area to sample and to arrive to a conclusion.  My findings are:

  1.  Finneytown and Princeton with the same demographics as Winton Woods did better in the State Report Card than Winton Woods.

  2. That the Substitutes that we used to have at Winton Woods have moved to those schools as well because of a better environment all together.

  3. That we have also lost some “red shirts” to those schools as well.

  4. I found there numerous students whom I met before at Winton Woods and are now either at Finneytown or Princeton.

  5. Why am I trying to fix a problem when I have a better environment in other schools systems, and why I declined the opportunity of taking employment at other school systems that were offered to me?

Simple, it is my time to give back to the community where I live and that is in the Winton Woods Schools System.  

I wished that the time the we crossed paths at Winton Woods High School we could of interacted more, but my time there was when sporadically called in, and I still miss the Fridays when my husband and I met you all in the afternoon.  I also valued ALL of your comments.  I believe that even the thinnest slice of cheese has two sides, therefore your comments and mine should also be dissected by the two halves.

It is my opinion that most of the Members of the Board have no idea of the daily struggles that the teachers go through and never will, unless they  arrive to the momentous decision of meeting with different groups of teachers alone, without any administrators present, and accepting the information for the only purpose and intent to better the school system.

If the Board refuses to do so, one can only assume that they do not want to hear the information that would disturb the complacency that is presently installed among most Board members.

Sincerely,

The Mad Botanist

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Mad Botanist, your "assumption" regarding an attitude of  complacency on behalf of any member of WW Board of Education is grossly incorrect reflecting a most biased viewpoint.  A much more accurate accounting is the WW School Board, as a cohesive team, is actively engaged in the important work toward identifying, investigating and most importantly, working for positive solutions for all children within our district. This often thankless, yet richly rewarding, task is one voluntarily taken to build and strengthen our school district with the ultimate goal to provide a rich, well-rounded academic and social experience producing young adults who are fully prepared to be successful citizens today and tomorrow.  

Destructive, corrosive language and attitudes only serve to perpetuate a damning result further dividing public sentiment and support at the time when this much needed, collective positive communal support is paramount to the road of academic success.  To understand the gravity of the issues does not require a negative mindset; one akin to the "Chicken Little" approach to a challenge. To run aimlessly and mindlessly shouting " the sky is falling, the sky is falling"  offers no serious solutions and serves no one effectively.   

As a school district, there are truly, critical issues to tackle requiring thoughtful, strategically coordinated solutions in order to solve these challenges that have percolated over time.  An equally important thought to consider and one that serves your School Board well is the fact that most every school board member also is a district parent who has practical, first hand insight into the day to day experiences within the district. Further, serving on our district's School Board is hardly the place for one who seeks complacency; a thoroughly flawed conclusion.  

  

Edited by paula

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Paula, your feeble and inane attempts to criticize and belittle those who criticize the system are your attempts to kill the messengers of unfavorable facts.

If the rest of the Board has your attitude there is no hope for improvement in the system.

Most of the parents,including yourself have little or no insight into what the teachers deal with on a daily basis. Your child was in AGS or went to UC for advanced courses. His interaction with the general school population was limited.

Many citizens in the District have little faith that the Board will make any significant positive changes. The consensus seems to be that the Board seems to be populated with people who are mere figure heads or window dressing, with one becoming a political hack who is using their position on the Board to run for another  office. None of this bodes well for the District or its students.

Over 80% of the school population lives below the poverty level. Many of those households have an unstructured life style. Discipline is absolutely essential for those students to succeed.

I am beginning to agree with  a former Board member who told me that a State take over of the system may not be all bad. This would be a drastic measure ,but maybe necessary. I doubt whether the present Board has the strength or will to deal with the problems effectively. The designation by the Department of Education of the District as "Challenged" should have been a wake up call but apparently it was not.

Paula we will just have to strongly agree to disagree.  Trying to kill the messenger will solve nothing.

I do not intend to reply further to you.

 

Cicero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Well, Paula, I take it that Cicero's comment "I do not intend to reply further to you" is his way of saying he's going to take his ball and go home.  He didn't like what he was hearing, and instead of having a civil, fact-based debate with you about it (You would think he would be into that, being an attorney), it seems he's reacting emotionally by refusing to discuss it anymore.  That's not the way to solve problems and reach positive solutions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Paula,

You know that I am a huge fan of you.  But I think Mad B. raises some very good points that really aren't all that "Chicken Little" and should be carefully considered as the district transitions to PBL. The board can reject those sentiments.. but should not be all that surprised (later) when the voters turn the district down for cash at some point down the road.... or transfer their children to neighboring districts.  The district has received a number of "wake up calls" over the years.. but if they want to keep hitting the snooze button, that's on them. I have no dog in the fight. 

I believe you are working very hard to right the ship... but I hope you are also listening to the harsh critics and those within the classrooms to get a really good idea of the challenges.  I think previous leaders just listened to the administration, certain "clergy",  honor students, consultants from CPS, or others that have no real idea what a typical WW teacher faced on a daily basis.  Seriously, how can you run a place well if the staff has the perception that they are just to "do what they are told" and "fly under the radar".  NO, I am not talking about wholesale rebellion and chaos... but open communication benefits any organization if done properly.   The previous board  (minus one board member) gave us the "hand" when we wanted to talk to them after he bond issue loss last May.   Why?  We were the ones that fought that fight for the new buildings.. and now.. you don't want to hear from us?  Does that make sense? Trust me. I heard A LOT from families that were the same concerns I had.

Let's just say that Cicero is like the Donald Trump of junedale.  Yes, it is easy to vilify him (and I have) or dismiss his comments as outrageous (as I have).  BUT.. he (and Mad B.) aren't entirely wrong either.  Much of what DT says actually concerns most people...even if you don't like him personally.   If you stop hearing from someone like Cicero, you cut off a very vital link to the 71% of the voters that told you NO on the bond issue and the families that have great students.. that send them to Princeton.   He is the only one with the time to give you feedback.  Most won't.  In fact, it looks like everyone else (Christine, Dazed) has given up the cause.    Gosh knows I have better things to do =)

Again Paula, I'm a big fan of you and have been for years.  I wish you well in all of this.  Stay positive, but do stay in tune with those that have negative things to say.  They are, in the end, huge assets to building the place up.

Edited by equalizer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

I have no interest to stifle opinions or filter comments of various viewpoints. Quite the opposite.  As a matter of fact, productive dialogue and open exchange is tremendously critical allowing for deeper understanding leading to solutions. As a long time resident with many friends and acquaintances all around the community and school, do you really think I am so sheltered or cloistered from areas in need of improvement, enhancement  and other areas of concern??  Just because one works to proactively strengthen weaknesses; abstains from doom and gloom mentality and envisions positive outcomes does this mean the challenges and critical areas for improvement are not keenly observed and  identified?  NO!  According to Cicero, my viewpoint or any other does not count or have merit because it does not fit his negative narrative.  For some reason personal experiences that do not match his created scenerio are quickly rejected with venomous, hateful comments.  

That is the huge difference between folks who raise valid points with open communication with intent to contribute to the quality of education and those whose choose to distort the conversation to meet their own personal, destructive agendas. Our community is filled with a variety of viewpoints each with merit, but some displayed behavior is especially repugnant and offensive to me. I have little patience for those who seek not to build but to destroy.   

The whole purpose of the original post was NOT to have frank and open conversation, but is a smear campaign for unknown reasons of the author. C'mon! How transparent does the message have to be before you can see this?  

For this reason, I do find the post blatantly offensive as the delivery and intent are destructively geared. 

Edited by paula

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

One can now see how the party line of the school board will play out "Anyone who posts a negative comment or facts regarding the school system will be accused of running a smear campaign."

Sorry but this will not stifle dissent.

E.Q  made a very good point. Within a few years there will be an operating levy on the ballot and if the school status is the same as it is today it will not pass. People who are retired or approaching retirement will not throw good money after bad.

 

Cicero

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Cicero,

Honestly, you probably are wasting your time with your crusade, noble though it may be.  I'd put my house up for sale (someone will buy it) and move to a place where they play Jimmy Buffett all day long and the weather is 75 degrees year round.  Oh gosh, I really want to do that now.  You are only on this ball of dirt for so long... I don't think WW is a cause that I'd die on a mountain for anymore.

I saw that with the bond issue.  It was "Oh, wow.. oh oh (Equalizer).. yes yes.. thank you for your money and spending Saturday morning out here on this project when only FIVE other people in the community (aside from those on the payroll) got off their a** to do anything".  Oh yes, thank you for taking on that Cicero.... yes yes" .  The (then) president of the WWTA took a huge beating from some of the teachers for championing the bond issue in a very public way.  

Then after the bond issue was over.. POOF.. these same people didn't give a rip what we all thought might help improve chances for another try. .. didn't have the "appetite for it".  The concerns the community had were the same ones the teachers had.  Our WWTA President (at the time) did more to bridge gaps with the board and the community than the past 6 presidents combined.. and yet...  crickets.

Now I know why so few teachers even bothered to show up to those things.  But.....

It's like you said.  Some of the parents in WW need to get off their *** and pay attention.  They don't and they won't.  Why?  Who knows.  They always had time to rip me (and my colleagues) a new one about "their child".. without any regard to what was going on to help put "their child" on a noble and successful road.  

I think a lot of people have given counsel to the board (past and present) as well as to their bosses.  If they take the advice, fine.  If they don't, that's on them as well.   They don't have to listen to anybody.  You've tried for a long time.  Perhaps if the state takes over.. you can tell them "I told you so" from a cabana down in Key West.

Cicero, life is too beautiful and too short to waste. I'd even suggest that to Gambier and a couple of others.  Like a lot of causes, if nobody is willing to help share the burden... you will be very tired very quickly and nobody will appreciate your efforts.  I am learning that even at my age.  I don't regret the battles that I have fought.. but unless and until others join the fight and pick up a pitchfork, your efforts are futile.  I just don't see anyone else fighting your battles.. and if they are.. they are letting you carry the load.  That's not fair to you.

Again, I'm a big Paula fan and believe she understands the issues and the whole picture.  I hope that things turn around under her direction.
 

Edited by equalizer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Cicero- Thought you tired of the conversation.... True to character, misquoting and misleading statements are your primary tools. Please reread my personal comments: I say YOU are running a smear campaign based upon this post and your many comments.  The only truthful insights into your motivations are regarding future money to support our school district and your keen desire not to support this important work of our children's education.   

I would contend that the investment into the education of our children is an investment that yields dividends eternal.  As a community, are we so short sighted not to understand it is the next generation who will one day inherit our country and they will the ones who will provide for the seniors? If we are derelict in our responsibility today, the result is much more dire than Cicero's "image" of our school's today.

As Cicero pointed out, a great majority of the student population lives below the poverty level through no fault of their own ( the child); Not unlike many past American generations who want to elevate themselves out of poverty.  Education is a only powerful force that can equalize this disadvantage and provide for an avenue to greater success in life. Our country recognized this opportunity and understands this value. Each generation sacrificing for the next. 

Contrary to the viewpoint promoted by Cicero, the vast majority of our students go onto become productive members of society. I know countless graduates of our district who accomplish tremendous things. The point is today, the need for strong community support has intensified and will be the hope that revitalizes our schools for the future.     

 

EQ- appreciate your kind comments :)   - I will not disappoint! 

Edited by paula

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

I have read this topic with interest and concern.  I have only a couple of things to add. I do not care if this is the norm nor do I care if other schools have more or less police intervention. I care because this school is in our community and this is the school that we receive a huge tax bill each and every year.

A great majority of the student population live below the poverty level? So what!  Back in the day when we were all skipping around through a field of wildflowers and shitting rainbows we were all probably below or very near the poverty level.  What does poverty have to do with acting appropriately in school?   NOTHING, Nothing at all. Yes, the family dynamics have changed but school has not. Unless something is done with this discipline problem then they have ZERO chance of ever being a contributing member of society. I hope that the new board supports the teachers and works very hard to make WWCS  a district we all can be proud of.

Edited by Pool lover

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Stop defending inappropriate behavior.  Stop accepting mediocrity, or below average.  Stop comparing yourself to bad behavior and then believing that you are successful.  Stop making excuses for why you are under par.  Stop believing that sub par is acceptable.

Instead, set a standard.  Believe in that standard.  Don't accept anything below that standard.  Don't argue against that standard.  Hold people accountable to that standard.  Poor has absolutely nothing to do with behavior.  Rich has nothing to do with behavior. Your status in life has absolutely nothing to do with behavior.  Behavior is chosen, behavior is selected, behavior is learned.  If you don't accept it, it changes.  If you accept it, it stays the same.  If you accept it, you enable it.  If you accept it, you are part of the problem.

Edited by Christine

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

E.Q. I tend to agree with you. All of the Protagonists  have had their say and have apparently fixed their positions. Further discussion on this topic would be repetitive.

 

Cicero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0