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Grade level schools

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Someone asked for numbers I have them. I apologize in advance but this will be a long post. To summarize I have analyzed option 2 vs an option 4 (closing Cammeron Park and placing those students in the 4 remaining elementary schools). The bottom line is the Central Office has stated that they can save 18 certificated staff by going with option 2 and only 4 certificated staff with the k-6 option 4. When I asked for the roll up to the difference between these two numbers I was quoted "economies of scale". When I asked for more detail I was quoted "Econimies of Scale 5-6 building 8 teachers , Economies of scale k-4 buildings 4 teachers, Economies of scale needing less specials, 2 additional teachers". As you can imagine I was less than satisfied with the response, so I decided to do my own analysis.

When reviewing current enrollment by grade level, current teaching staff, and class limits. I am able to demonstrate tha closing Cammeron Park and filtering those kids into the available space in the 4 remaining schools will save close to the same number of teachers (17). In other districts such as Finneytown there is a savings associated with grade level schools because it allows you to maximixe class size by placing all the kids at each grade at 1 school. However, Finneytown didn't close an elementary school when reconfiguring and I content that closing Cammeron Park forces us to do just that. It forces us to place those kids (Cammeron Park) in the remaining schools where there is available space. Thus, allowing us to save the additional teaching staff.

I have been trying for a long time now to find a flaw in my data. I welcome anyone out there to help me verify my findings.

The Raw Data is as follows: (remember KDG teachers teach 2 half classes)

Kindergarten 270 Students 8 Teachers Class limits 21

First Grade 291 Students 14 Teachers Class limits 22

Second Grade 281 Students 13 Teachers Class limits 22

Third Grade 257 Students 14 Teachers Class limits 27

Fourth Grade 270 Students 13 Teachers Class limits 27

Fifth Grade 281 Students 14 Teachers Class limits 27

Sixth Grade 335 Students 15 Teachers Class limits 27

* Note this doesn't even address the fact that the 54 extra 6th grade students will me moving on to the middle school next year being replaced with a class that is 54 students less (exactly the number of 2 more teachers). I could get the number of teachers released (saved) to 19 with this fact.

There is much more data available as you look at enrollment by class by school. I contend we can save 12 total certified grade level teachers(rounding down as we can not utilize a partial teacher). We also save the 3 Specials teachers (Music, Art, and Gym), these are also certificated staff. There are 2 Intervention teachers at Waycross that would also be released in all options, bringing the total to 17. Again, if anyone would like all my data (it came from the Central Office)I would welcome the opportunity to have it verified.

I have also analyzed the number of actual classrooms needed and the physical space available. My data shows this option 4 would require 2 modulars to be built at Beechwoods. Option 1 states 3 modulars to be built at Beechwoods.

If I am correct and we can eliminate the finacial argument stating that option 1,2, & 3 save approximately $1 million more than option 4. Then we can begin to have the discussion about what is best for our children. But until then no one is willing to listen to me on that topic.

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Posted · Report post

Someone asked for numbers I have them. I apologize in advance but this will be a long post. To summarize I have analyzed option 2 vs an option 4 (closing Cammeron Park and placing those students in the 4 remaining elementary schools). The bottom line is the Central Office has stated that they can save 18 certificated staff by going with option 2 and only 4 certificated staff with the k-6 option 4. When I asked for the roll up to the difference between these two numbers I was quoted "economies of scale". When I asked for more detail I was quoted "Econimies of Scale 5-6 building 8 teachers , Economies of scale k-4 buildings 4 teachers, Economies of scale needing less specials, 2 additional teachers". As you can imagine I was less than satisfied with the response, so I decided to do my own analysis.

When reviewing current enrollment by grade level, current teaching staff, and class limits. I am able to demonstrate tha closing Cammeron Park and filtering those kids into the available space in the 4 remaining schools will save close to the same number of teachers (17). In other districts such as Finneytown there is a savings associated with grade level schools because it allows you to maximixe class size by placing all the kids at each grade at 1 school. However, Finneytown didn't close an elementary school when reconfiguring and I content that closing Cammeron Park forces us to do just that. It forces us to place those kids (Cammeron Park) in the remaining schools where there is available space. Thus, allowing us to save the additional teaching staff.

I have been trying for a long time now to find a flaw in my data. I welcome anyone out there to help me verify my findings.

The Raw Data is as follows: (remember KDG teachers teach 2 half classes)

Kindergarten 270 Students 8 Teachers Class limits 21

First Grade 291 Students 14 Teachers Class limits 22

Second Grade 281 Students 13 Teachers Class limits 22

Third Grade 257 Students 14 Teachers Class limits 27

Fourth Grade 270 Students 13 Teachers Class limits 27

Fifth Grade 281 Students 14 Teachers Class limits 27

Sixth Grade 335 Students 15 Teachers Class limits 27

* Note this doesn't even address the fact that the 54 extra 6th grade students will me moving on to the middle school next year being replaced with a class that is 54 students less (exactly the number of 2 more teachers). I could get the number of teachers released (saved) to 19 with this fact.

There is much more data available as you look at enrollment by class by school. I contend we can save 12 total certified grade level teachers(rounding down as we can not utilize a partial teacher). We also save the 3 Specials teachers (Music, Art, and Gym), these are also certificated staff. There are 2 Intervention teachers at Waycross that would also be released in all options, bringing the total to 17. Again, if anyone would like all my data (it came from the Central Office)I would welcome the opportunity to have it verified.

I have also analyzed the number of actual classrooms needed and the physical space available. My data shows this option 4 would require 2 modulars to be built at Beechwoods. Option 1 states 3 modulars to be built at Beechwoods.

If I am correct and we can eliminate the finacial argument stating that option 1,2, & 3 save approximately $1 million more than option 4. Then we can begin to have the discussion about what is best for our children. But until then no one is willing to listen to me on that topic.

Cincy Kid

this is very interesting information, and I strongly suggest that you make the BofE and Education answer to it. Copy your post and send it to Dr Nasbe and the BofE members. If nothing else, they have to respond. If you just leave it posted here then it becomes nothing more than interesting conversation.

csemmert@aol.com

jpennycuff@fuse.net

lee.jack@wintonwoods.org

tmicleary@fuse.net

priscillafranklin@yahoo.com

nasbe.camille@wintonwoods.org

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Posted · Report post

Actually the information is currently in Tom Golinar's hands waiting fo him to respond. I do not want to go to the Board members until I am sure that I haven't missed a step.

That's why I welcome anyone else to take my raw data and do a similar analysis to help me verify my findings.

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Just confirming if I'm following you:

Grade-----Students-------Class Limit-------S/CL = Tchrs Req'd----Current teachers

1------------291------------22------------------------14------------------------14

2------------281------------22------------------------13------------------------13

3------------257------------27------------------------10------------------------14

4------------270------------27------------------------10------------------------13

5------------281------------27------------------------11------------------------14

6------------335------------27------------------------13------------------------15

TOTALS: 71 Req'd; 83 Used now.

There's your 12 head count reduction, not incl. K'garten, which may allow for one fewer teacher but maybe not. Plus the Gym, Art & Music teacher gets to 15/16. Plus, don't forget Principal, Ass't P., other building-related staff, which are also probably significant. Is that it in a nutshell?

Can you/we allocate these classes among the 4 buildings and have it work? Can you share the building-by-building breakdowns you have? The # of class rooms in each building, and how many classes of each grade would go in each building?

Understand there's almost no room for error here: the avg class size will be w/in 1 - 2 students of the max size. With zero extra capacity w/o adding headcount, administering the make-up of these classes will be a real challenge. Not impossible maybe, but that's an objection you need to be ready to address.

Also, the functional equivalent of taking current CP students and dispersing them among 4 buildings would be to just redraw attendance zones for each of the 4 buildings. The number of kids doesn't change, the number of classrooms doesn't change, the the class size limits and the number of teachers won't change, so the financial benefits you're talking about shouldn't change, either.

That way, four neighbors that currently go to CP wouldn't find themselves attending four different schools next year, which would be kind of silly, not to mention completely unfair. You can't treat the former CP students/families any different than you treat anyone else. It's not their fault their school is closing.

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Posted · Report post

also remember that the number of intervention specialists is based not only on the total number of kids but the number of kids with needs

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First, CDR Intervention teachers I believe are basically teachers on probation that have been placed in individual classes (at Waycross) to help out. Correct me if I am wrong.

Second, Yes Pioneer of 83 those are the numbers that I came up with. As for your question on Classroom capacity the data is as follows:

Beechwoods-----Current Classrooms 22

Lakeside ---------Current Classrooms 24-----Note new Modular in back is included

Waycross---------Current Classroms 32

Winton Forest ----Current Classrooms 25

Preschool currently uses 4 classrooms at Beechwoods

Special Education Classrooms needed 17

Kindergarten Classrooms needed 7

The Central Office data stated 2 classrooms needed 1 ea or 8 total. for Art and Music at each location I included that. However, we know that each location is not currently using 2 classrooms for those programs.

Factoring in all the homerooms k-6, Special Ed, Pre-School, Art, and Music rooms needed I came up with 106 total rooms needed for Option 4, 3 more than the current capacity of 103. Thus giving us the 2 modulars needed at Beechwoods. Note that 1 modular accomidates 2 classrooms. Also, Beechwoods is the most logical place to put the modulars due to the space in back.

From a financial standpoint I believe we can make a strong case for the K-6 option. As for the Cammeron Park families, and the education of one option vs another thats another argument. I would welcome that discussion. Ultimately thats the discussion we should be having.

Again, I offer all my raw data ( I will make you copies) to anyone who chooses to verify or disprove what I have stated. I simply want what's best for the children as a whole. Until we get passed this financial hurdle it seems that discussion won't take place.

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First, CDR Intervention teachers I believe are basically teachers on probation that have been placed in individual classes (at Waycross) to help out. Correct me if I am wrong.

actually that is not correct. An intervention specialist is a special education teacher. Now that public schools no longer have special ed classrooms, intervention specialists "intervene" for children with special needs who have been mainstreamed into a "normal" classroom. This could mean spending time with a child who needs extra help, such as reading a test for a sight or hearing impaired child, providing consultative services to teachers in how to teach special needs kids, etc etc. So again, an intervention specialist is NOT a teacher on probation.

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Then let me rephrase that. There ar currently 2 teachers on probation for what reason's I do not know. They do not have their own classes at this time due to the probation and have been place in classes at Waycross to help other teachers. The district information has refered to these as Intervention teachers and other teachers have used the same term. The district has stated that they would be willing to include these in their teacher savings.

There may be another type of special Ed teacher called Intervention specialists (I have never used the term Specialist). I am simply using the same terms that have been used to refer to these teachers by the district.

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Posted · Report post

I just wanted to thank Cincykid for all the hard work! Its too late at night right now for me to digest all that - but I LOVE the sound of it. I HOPE you get somewhere with it. If I can help with any legwork stuff, please let me know!

email: sssulliv@cinci.rr.com

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Just a note on community schools. Someone who purchased a home in Greenhills recently was declined by the school district in regards to sending their child to Beechwoods (overcrowded...even though they live just around the corner...in fact moved back to Greenhills so their child could walk to school). In lieu of busing to another public WW elementary school, they selected parochial education.

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I think that is rediculous that someone who lives in the immediate area of Beechwoods would be turned away because it's overcrowded. I think even though my son is a intra-district transfer student that the district should keep openings for the students that are actually from that area. Maybe draw the line at 2 or 3 students per grade. That would allow for new students throughout the year, and also we usually have 2 or 3 per grade that withdrawl during the year for whatever reasons. I think if the district did that you would not have to turn away students. I assumed that they did this already, but after reading Christine's post as well as some earlier post I have come to realize that maybe they don't do this. If they don't, they should start. And the fact that there are so many people wanting transfers should open the districts eyes to see that there a big differences between the schools. Do they poll these people to see why they want to change? Years ago when my daughters were in the district you have to fill out a form and give a good reason as to why you wanted to change as well as balance the racial make-up of the school you were applying for and we had to re-apply every year, but now I think it's different. When I filled out the transfer form for AC, it was very brief, I don't remember even having to give a reason, and once you are accepted you don't have to re-apply every year. Maybe I did have to state a reason and just forgot (my memory these days is not as good as it should be), either way I think it was pretty brief. I know that you still have to help balance the school racially also. This is just what I think. (Correct me if I'm wrong WWW). You always seem to have the heads up on these issues. I just think the system is failing those that are turned away for overcrowding, and we are losing those people to private schools. People do move into certain areas for the schools (as well as other reasons I'm sure). But I think if the school was within a block that would be a big plus for home buyers.

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I feel badly for this family and in terms of the feelings in the community this couldn't have come at a worse time. I would also bet that the district would have preferred that this not happen and probably allowances were made which have already been filled. Wasn't there a post somewhere indicating that the poster had heard of extra pressure being exerted on the district/superintendent to allow some transfers which had been originally denied? If so, that also may have contributed to this situation.

In terms of the intra-district transfers, is it possible that the parameters for permitting students to do so have been dictated by the state? Two of my grandchildren are intra-district transfers in the Cincinnati Public Schools and racial balance was the only real consideration in granting their request. I also know that they don't have to re-apply each year.

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Wasn't there a post somewhere indicating that the poster had heard of extra pressure being exerted on the district/superintendent to allow some transfers which had been originally denied? If so, that also may have contributed to this situation.

I wouldn't call it extra pressure, I guess it depends on who asks.

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Maybe I misunderstood the characterization.

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I wouldn't call it extra pressure, I guess it depends on who asks.

I personally know a few people that were denied transfers last year and also this year. One family had 2 kids and the older was accepted and the younger was denied. So the parent decided to keep them both together at their home school. It's all about space. If it's not there is not there. I don't think anyone can put pressure on the district to get accepted. I just think that some of the people that were denied feel as though they should have been accepted before others.

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