NEW levy info

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Keep in mind, with the 2004 levy we planned on it lasting 3 years. It went 4 years

and that was with the State taking back money after the fact in 2005 and flat lining (meaning 0% increases) their portion in FY06, FY07 and FY08. That was with trimming the budget all along the way. The forecast currently reflects no increase in State funds, nor do we anticipate any additional State money.

It's great that WWCS squeaked out another year from the last levy, but I believe that there is still fluff in the the system. Case in point:

1. Do 3rd and 4th graders need Chinese instruction? Do they then need spanish instruction in 5th and 6th grade? None of this will go towards a foreign language credit needed to graduate h.s.

2. At whose expense are all of the after-school programs, such as karate, paid for, outside sources or the district?

3. The Chorus's group trip to China this coming year. Yes, the district is seeking funds from outside sources, but they still have to pay teachers, modular pay, for the time they have contact with students outside of the teacher contract hours. This is why my district did away with overnight camp field trips at Camp Cambell Guard, and extended day field trips. Publicity is great, but do the people in China really care what the kids here are doing.

Every district has fluff, and I personally, in the last year have seen fluff added to the WWCS district that isn't going to help the students perform better in school. Or at least I'm not hearing about the programs that help students, perform better in math and reading. Are you aware that there is a waiting list, for the number of kids needing testing to see if they qualify for special education services? When the time line is they have to meet within 2 weeks of a request for help. Then develop a plan, and test and meet with the results within 60 days. I know WWCS isn't meeting these guidelines, because they don't have staffing for to get it done. My nephew has a Master's Degree in Early Elemantary ed, and is working as a special ed teacher in the district. Funds I believe are being mismanaged.

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WWW, I thought I saw you starting to get a little tense in your response to Nutt. Understand that you are demanding that a voter to answer to you.

Re-reading my post, you may be right that it would be perceived that way.

Nutt,

If you took it that way, I sincerely apologize. I was just trying to understand your point of view, that's all. If you would prefer to discuss in private, that's cool too.

Thanks P83, sorry I missed your post early. Got a little busy.

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1.  Do 3rd and 4th graders need Chinese instruction?  Do they then need spanish instruction in 5th and 6th grade?  None of this will go towards a foreign language credit needed to graduate h.s.  

2.  At whose expense are all of the after-school programs, such as karate, paid for, outside sources or the district?

3. The Chorus's group trip to China this coming year.  Yes, the district is seeking funds from outside sources, but they still have to pay teachers, modular pay, for the time they have contact with students outside of the teacher contract hours.  This is why my district did away with overnight camp field trips at Camp Cambell Guard, and extended day field trips.  Publicity is great, but do the people in China really care what the kids here are doing. 

1. Chinese is totally paid for grant money. No local money. Yes we pay for Spanish and the only way can was through Reconfiguration. It would not have been possible last year. Further, as an educator I'm sure you're aware that teaching kids language skills at an early age is actually more effective than in HS years. Please keep this in perspective this is ONE class a week for every student.

2. After school programs primarily come from outside sources or paid fees.

3. Varsity Ensemble's trip to China has NO taxpayer money involved in sending this group to China. This is a once in a lifetime experience for these students and whatever teacher expenses (which are minimal, frankly trival) I can't believe A ) you're bringing them up B ) I'm have real problems with the last sentence. Compare this to the Lakota band going to the Rose Bowl or Macy's whereever they were going....no, you can't compare them. I'm sorry, I couldn't disagree more. A one time major lifetime event, a very few dollars vs. a $40 Million school budget? Come on...

Your final point, I'll check into. However, I would appreciate your definition of fluff.

But thanks for your input.

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No Warrior this is great the way it is!

Some where I can go and discuss!!

What ever the ????? I'm not sure what word would work? blink.gif

My kids are both grown and out of school but I as a supporter just have a few simple questions?

After all your going into some of my retirement???? laugh.gif

I vote a yes on nothing till I know.

I did vote for the increase tax for the village but they proved to me why!

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Posted · Report post

Re-reading my post, you may be right that it would be perceived that way.

Nutt,

If you took it that way, I sincerely apologize. I was just trying to understand your point of view, that's all. If you would prefer to discuss in private, that's cool too.

Thanks P83, sorry I missed your post early. Got a little busy.

No sweat. I was pretty sure all you were asking Nuttly was "Tell me what you want. Tell me what you need and expect so I can try to respond to it." But that other tone was in there a bit, too, and I just thought I'd give the "Heads up!" call.

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1. Chinese is totally paid for grant money. No local money. Yes we pay for Spanish and the only way can was through Reconfiguration. It would not have been possible last year. Further, as an educator I'm sure you're aware that teaching kids language skills at an early age is actually more effective than in HS years. Please keep this in perspective this is ONE class a week for every student.

2. After school programs primarily come from outside sources or paid fees.

3. Varsity Ensemble's trip to China has NO taxpayer money involved in sending this group to China. This is a once in a lifetime experience for these students and whatever teacher expenses (which are minimal, frankly trival) I can't believe A ) you're bringing them up B ) I'm have real problems with the last sentence. Compare this to the Lakota band going to the Rose Bowl or Macy's whereever they were going....no, you can't compare them. I'm sorry, I couldn't disagree more. A one time major lifetime event, a very few dollars vs. a $40 Million school budget? Come on...

Your final point, I'll check into. However, I would appreciate your definition of fluff.

But thanks for your input.

WWW.. thanks for the clarification. As far as the fluff. I feel that at the elemenatry level such just focus on the basics. As a special education teacher, who works with learning disabled and students without disablities, I see every day the number of students who have mastered the basic decrease each year. It's very frustrating having to go back and reteach skills that my 1st and 3rd grade sons are learning now, to 5th & 6th graders. Every district seems to want to jump on the "new way of learning bandwagon". 1st it was Whole Langauge, now it teaching using Investigations, but the end result is kids, who don't know the basic. You can go into any fast food restraunt and ask the cashier to add up you meal, figure out tax, and make change without the a computerized cash register and they can't do it. I remember going into Builder's Square, when they were going out of business, and the cashier had to use a calculator to figure out the discount, because the computerized cash registar was down. He couldn't do it. I had to tell him how. Schools need to get rid of the extra's and focus on the basics. Why teach Chinese and Spanish to kids, if they can't read and write at grade level, in their own language, English. Yes, I'm venting. But as a special ed teacher, each year the number of kids who can't is increasing, and in most cases it's a lack of teaching the basic and quality instruction. It's frustating seeing good, hard working kids not succeed. If the truth be known, I wish that the need for special education teachers was decreasing and not increasing.

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To K-Roman's point about Special Education. I believe that the number of parents believing that their child qualifies for "Special Education" has increased dramatically over the last 15 years. WW jumps right on things with parents. But what sometimes happens is that meetings need to be re-scheduled as families forget about or suddenly can't make it to a meeting. You'd be suprised how this clogs the system up. Testing is only one component to qualifing for Special Education. Those decisions are "team decisions". The team is more than just the School Pyschologist and the parent. Teachers, administrators, speech/language, even physical therpaists, etc. are all be a part of the process. There are many reasons why something could go over a guideline. I don't think WW is trying to delay any processes. There is just waaay too much oversight. In fact, Special Education seems to have more regulation than our food and water supply... seemingly, anyway. I don't think that Winton Woods is trying to blow folks off. Quite the opposite, they are very meticulous when it comes to following the law.

As for Math achievement, we have met that indicator at the HS for the last 3 years and made AYP last year. We have a number of programs in place to boost Math achievement. One of them is the after school tutoring from 2:-3:. We provide lessons that appeal to different modalities (learning styles). It is not 10 minutes of lecture and then "OK, 40 problems due tomorrow". A number of teachers provide help/study sessions. We also have internet based programs (Study Island) that help students sharpen skills for the OGT. Students involved in sports have mandatory "study tables" where they "study" before practice as athletics are a privilege that comes AFTER the academics are met. Finally, we have introduced a number of intervention small groups to address achievement.

We are doing a lot of things while managing the taxpayer dollar efficiently. A lot of the staff spends a lot of time looking at new ways to boost student performance. This is based on research into what is working and what the research shows is an effective approach to student learning. Without being tacky, some students simply don't care or ever bought into the concept of school being important. You can only flog yourself so much over students that have no interest in school. But we can't kick them out. They have a legal entitlement to sit in a chair and refuse instruction.

Finally, we also have to take a look at individual students. You are very limited in what you can accomplish with great lesson plans if your student is facing huge problems at home. The staff often must make a lot of accomodations to ensure student sucess which also takes time. This is radically different than 20-30 years ago when most children lived at home with mom and dad. Right now, we are dealing with quite a number of students that are facing (for the lack of a better word) anxiety over Christmas. It is very hard on some of our students. Behavior is typically worse this time of year. You don't hear much about that aspect of teaching, but it is pretty intense. Sometimes, we may be about the only people a kid trusts. It's pretty sad but a reality of our "high tech world".

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As a parent of a potential pupil, the quality of our schools alarms me. Although my husband and I are not Catholic we are resolved to send our child to St. James of the Valley if we are still here. And I am not sure we will still be here as I want to live in a school district where going to the parochial school is a choice, not a necessity. sad.gif

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As  a parent of a potential pupil, the quality of our schools alarms me. Although my husband and I are not Catholic we are resolved to send our child to St. James of the Valley if we are still here. And I am not sure we will still be here as I want to live in a school district where going to the parochial school is a choice, not a necessity. sad.gif

Again, I can understand that point. But you also have to get a fair balanced look at your Child's potential school. The Catholic system has its pros and cons as well. I don't think that a school was ever built that pleased everybody. Obviously, I think WW is worthy of your support. But I also know that support has to be earned.

How is WW letting you down Jen? I can only speak (from my standpoint) about the HS (so I may not be much help), but it might help if you lay the cards on the table... so to speak. I am sure that the Warrior can address any concerns that you have.

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Warrior is right about teaching languages early. Research has shown that the best time to learn a foreign language is when you are a baby. In my son's preschool, he is learning Spanish and even sign langauge. "Savage Nation" fans aside, the next generation is going to need to have a fairly good mastery of Spanish as an estimated 30-40% of our country will be Spanish speaking by 2050... according to some statistics. And of course, Chinese will be the other dominant language that will be needed to compete in a world where 1 out of every 5 people is Chinese.

Some folks do look to foreign languages as a frill, but it is going to be important for students when they graduate in 2014. In a lot of foreign countries, English instruction is treated with the same reverence as the country's native langauge. In fact, one could make a very good case that the language instruction could easily justify 2 or 3 days a week at an earlier grade. Finances being what they are, 1 day is better than nothing.

But here again, the State of Ohio seems to emphasize MATH over everything else. Foreign languages seem to be despised in Columbus as they want to cut those requirements in favor of more MATH. At least WW has the sense to recognize the need to develop those skills early.

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1. Chinese is totally paid for grant money. No local money. Yes we pay for Spanish and the only way can was through Reconfiguration. It would not have been possible last year. Further, as an educator I'm sure you're aware that teaching kids language skills at an early age is actually more effective than in HS years. Please keep this in perspective this is ONE class a week for every student.

2. After school programs primarily come from outside sources or paid fees.

3. Varsity Ensemble's trip to China has NO taxpayer money involved in sending this group to China. This is a once in a lifetime experience for these students and whatever teacher expenses (which are minimal, frankly trival) I can't believe A ) you're bringing them up B ) I'm have real problems with the last sentence. Compare this to the Lakota band going to the Rose Bowl or Macy's whereever they were going....no, you can't compare them. I'm sorry, I couldn't disagree more. A one time major lifetime event, a very few dollars vs. a $40 Million school budget? Come on...

Your final point, I'll check into. However, I would appreciate your definition of fluff.

But thanks for your input.

cool.gif Well said, WWW.

And anyone who believes that spanish language instruction in the year 2007 is not a very critical educational offering isn't paying very close attention to the world at large. One could argue that spanish should be a mandatory course offering today.

I'm a customer service/sales manager, and if a potential hire can speak conversational spanish well enough to pass a test upon being hired as a CSR at my company you start at 15% over what the other CSR's start at.

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Just a thought here...while everyone has good questions and certainly, as taxpayers, are deserving of answers, I can't understand why anyone would come to a public list such as this and demand answers to their questions. I posted this the other day too...WHY NOT CONTACT THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS...THE DISTRICT! While this is a great place to dialog and throw ideas around, express opinions, etc., it doesn't make sense to me that anyone would EXPECT/DEMAND to get gospel answers in such a venue. If you really want answers to your questions, don't hide behind screen names...show your face in the daylight and ask.

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I agree WW kids - if I moved to Mexico, I would fully expect to need to learn Spanish!

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When the school board decided years back, to take our beloved High School away from us, that was only the beginning!! It's all falling into place now, year by year. We all seen it coming!! ohmy.gif

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When the school board decided years back, to take our beloved High School away from us, that was only the beginning!!  It's all falling into place now, year by year. We all seen it coming!! ohmy.gif

So sad, but true Granny CJ. Been here since 1968--times have certainly changed for this town.

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When the school board decided years back, to take our beloved High School away from us, that was only the beginning!! It's all falling into place now, year by year. We all seen it coming!! ohmy.gif

cool.gif Granny...no disrespect meant, but I wonder what your property taxes would look like if the villiage of Greenhills....whose industry primarily consists of a toy store and a restaurant...had to support a school system in the year 2007?

In the year 2007, your "beloved high school" would be an albatross around the necks of this villiage that would turn it into a DMZ-like area. The tax vs. income % would run most families out of town overnight.

Someone said it earlier on another post. This is the FOREST PARK school district and Greenhills and parts of Springfield Township are invited guests. The decisions that are made have to be centric around Forest Park as they have 70%+ of the constituency/votes.

I'm not a native, so I don't have the emotional attachment. I respect that you do, but it doesn't change the reality of where we are today.

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cool.gif Granny...no disrespect meant, but I wonder what your property taxes would look like if the villiage of Greenhills....whose industry primarily consists of a toy store and a restaurant...had to support a school system in the year 2007?

In the year 2007, your "beloved high school" would be an albatross around the necks of this villiage that would turn it into a DMZ-like area. The tax vs. income % would run most families out of town overnight.

Someone said it earlier on another post. This is the FOREST PARK school district and Greenhills and parts of Springfield Township are invited guests. The decisions that are made have to be centric around Forest Park as they have 70%+ of the constituency/votes.

I'm not a native, so I don't have the emotional attachment. I respect that you do, but it doesn't change the reality of where we are today.

This will be my one and only post on this old topic. Maybe.

Greenhills is small. That system would be small. I think it's reasonable to believe that the costs for such a system may not be any greater than the burden currently borne by the tax payers. Small schools and small districts do exist, and from a cost basis, I think they're likely to be quite comparable to what we're paying now. Who knows, we might even be pleasantly surprised at what the costs would be, since we're certainly paying a pretty penny now.

The test to determine if this is true or not would be to look at existing small schools or districts in the state or region and compare the per capita or per household expense ratios at least for the public ones, or the per student costs for both public and private. There's plenty of info available for all of those. I don't think it's quite right to assume such a scenario would be cost prohibitive. It's absolutely politically impossible, (which is why we're not going to go into all of this again) but very probably not financially impossible. And as for "running families out of town" I think it's more likely it would attract new families and new taxable incomes. What does the supply/demand situation on homes in Wyoming tell you about that? Is there flight because it's too expensive, or is it in such demand that home prices there are multiples higher than comparable pieces of real estate in Greenhills? Politically impossible, yes, but financially feasible and for the whole village probably (almost certainly?) a net economic benefit which would be a boon to all current residents and homeowners.

UPDATE/EDIT TO ORIGINAL POST: One or two data points is not a complete evaluation, but Lockland's enrollment is 677 students, and by looking at one piece of residential property in that district at the Ham Co Auditor's site the ratio of property taxes paid to the Lockland school district / home valuation is almost exactly identical to the ratio we have right now here in our district. Same process for a Mariemont property showed the same thing. No, financial feasibility isn't the roadblock for a Greenhills School System. Political issues are.

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This will be my one and only post on this old topic. Maybe.

Greenhills is small. That system would be small. I think it's reasonable to believe that the costs for such a system may not be any greater than the burden currently borne by the tax payers. Small schools and small districts do exist, and from a cost basis, I think they're likely to be quite comparable to what we're paying now. Who knows, we might even be pleasantly surprised at what the costs would be, since we're certainly paying a pretty penny now.

The test to determine if this is true or not would be to look at existing small schools or districts in the state or region and compare the per capita or per household expense ratios at least for the public ones, or the per student costs for both public and private. There's plenty of info available for all of those. I don't think it's quite right to assume such a scenario would be cost prohibitive. It's absolutely politically impossible, (which is why we're not going to go into all of this again) but very probably not financially impossible. And as for "running families out of town" I think it's more likely it would attract new families and new taxable incomes. What does the supply/demand situation on homes in Wyoming tell you about that? Is there flight because it's too expensive, or is it in such demand that home prices there are multiples higher than comparable pieces of real estate in Greenhills? Politically impossible, yes, but financially feasible and for the whole village probably (almost certainly?) a net economic benefit which would be a boon to all current residents and homeowners.

UPDATE/EDIT TO ORIGINAL POST: One or two data points is not a complete evaluation, but Lockland's enrollment is 677 students, and by looking at one piece of residential property in that district at the Ham Co Auditor's site the ratio of property taxes paid to the Lockland school district / home valuation is almost exactly identical to the ratio we have right now here in our district. Same process for a Mariemont property showed the same thing. No, financial feasibility isn't the roadblock for a Greenhills School System. Political issues are.

cool.gif Lockland has an industrial/business park section (Shepard Ave mostly) that houses at least 8 companies that have 75+ full time employees. Lockland also get a fair amount of DOE funding due to their community. Mariemont has a thriving retail district, a major shopping complex, several restaurants, and their share of businesses as well. The only employer in Greenhills that would have more than 25 full time staffers would be the schools themselves. They are comparible in size to Greenhills, but not in revenue.

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Lockland is classified by ODE as an urban/suburban district with low incomes and high poverty. Mariemont is classified as a district with high income, as is WWCSD. Wyoming is classified as a very high income district.

Winton Woods does not currently have a large industrial or retail revenue component to their budget.

If we're going to evaluate this hypothetical scenario or thought experiment, then let's do it thoroughly, honestly and intelligently. Economics wasn't the reason for adding FP into the district, it wasn't the reason given for consolidating the high schools, and it isn't a legitimate basis for concluding, without much further research, that GH couldn't have it's own district.

But you know what, it isn't going to happen, so who cares? There are so many people committed to the status quo for political reasons that not only is it impossible to execute on such a vision politically, it's damned near impossible to even discuss it fairly. The concept of schools for Greenhills is so terrifying and unsettling, to those with vested interests in the current structure, and they've trumpeted for so long and so loudly about how such a concept is evil or stupid or wrong that even just talking about it just drives them over the edge. So Grandma CJ and others, like me, will continue to feel how we feel, and as soon as we refer to our ideas about Greenhills schools, no matter how briefly or even in passing, we'll get lectured about practicality and will be somewhat condescendingly excused for our silly , irrational, emotional attachments. Whatever. We're used to it.

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There have been a lot of questions, might I even say speculation in some of the threads, towards the financials of the district. At some points questioning the authenticity, correctness, or justification for expenditures.

The last time they school district FORCED a levy through, the football field got a face lift and new turf. Whats wrong with grass? There is too much money being spent on the "extras" our school district provides and not enough on the actual education the students need.

If the levy passes you will probably find a for sale sign in my yard!!

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The last time they school district FORCED a levy through, the football field got a face lift and new turf. Whats wrong with grass? There is too much money being spent on the "extras" our school district provides and not enough on the actual education the students need.

If the levy passes you will probably find a for sale sign in my yard!!

Geniuspot,

(I almost abbreviated the first part of your sign-on, but realized how that would look and quickly reconsidered.)

A re-education committee will be visiting you soon to inform you of the error of your ways. And by the way, when they show up, know they don't appreciate being called the Thought Police, so you might want to stay away from calling them that.

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The chink in your argument P-83 is the district-wide valuations/pupil.

Mariemont: $177,443

Lockland: $160,043

Winton Woods: $119,255

So, to raise equals amounts of money from millage, WWCSD's rate would have to be roughly 33% higher than in Lockland and 50% higher than Mariemont's. If all 3 districts had the same millage, for every $100 that Mariemont would raise, WW would raise $67 and for every $100 raised by Lockland, WWCSD would raise $75.

I would doubt that the valuation/pupil rate would be as high as $119,000 for Greenhills alone. Maybe I'm wrong, it's just a guess.

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cincygrrl70

The purpose of this levy is to attract and retain top quality staff, to purchase the appropriate learning and technological resources for our classrooms, and to upgrade our safety and security.

The only purpose for this levy is to close an accelerating expenditure/revenue gap. Hopefully an exceedingly intense review of current and forecast expenditures will occur at the 'Second F.I.R.E'.

I'll sign on to P-83's thought experiment.

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I was trying to find a definition for that valuation stat, but couldn't. Let me see if I can think it through:

The number a district needs to manage to is whatever the required budget would be to educate the kids. Say the # is $10k per kid. So, if in District A the average home value is $200k, let's assume the $/house to raise the required budget is $2k/year. But if the average home value in District B is $100k, if the # of kids is the same, then to get to $10k per kid the $/house would have to be twice that, $4k a year. But there's still a missing variable: the # of houses.

But you've said that it's valuation per pupil, ( I don't think it has the "per pupil" part on the ODE site) so maybe the # is the total valuation of all properties in the district / by # of kids, and that comes to the same thing without having to control for # of properties.

So to really nail this, we'd have to know how the valuation/kid ratio in GH would compare to the valuation/kid ratio in the entire district. I don't know exactly how we find that out, probably can't, but my guess would be it's pretty close. FP probably has higher home values, but my gut instinct is that there's probably also more kids on a relative basis. (Maybe the home values in FP aren't higher. There are lots and lots of apartment units in FP. I would think that would drive down val/pupil pretty dramatically. Thinking of that some more, I'll bet the average home value in GH is higher, and I'll bet we have fewer students per unit. I'll check out the total valuation w/ the Village Mgr., I'll be he knows what it is.)

But, back to my age-old position that makes everyone nuts, if GH schools created demand, then we'd see the valuation of properties increase, so that 119k would go up. Enough? Maybe, maybe not. If there were sufficient political will, I absolutely believe the money would be there. But it's easier to move or go private, so that's the alternative that people who are dissatisfied are choosing.

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The last time they school district FORCED a levy through, the football field got a face lift and new turf. Whats wrong with grass? There is too much money being spent on the "extras" our school district provides and not enough on the actual education the students need.

If the levy passes you will probably find a for sale sign in my yard!!

Turf saves money in the long run. It never needs mowed, watered, fertilized, repainted or patched. It also allows for the field to be used (rented) by many other teams without fear of the damage that prevents such use (and revenue) with a grass field. Turf is a sound economic decision.

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