Interesting Facts & Figures

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It doesn't matter what the issues are, you still need to produce a product that has desireable results, a product that people will buy and want to consume.

I absolutely acknowledge the issues the district is facing, but from what I have seen and from what you are saying "they are unable to solve the problem and produce the desired results". Yes, they have reached "effective", however their decisions and approach are taking good students and good families out of the school system and out of this village, and out of Forest Park. What is the result of that? Changing demographics within the WWSD, Greenhills and Forest Park. This result may also alter the "effective" rating, however that is too be determined.

The fact is the three communities have had 17 years to figure it out. It's not going to happen. Each community is unique and has vastly different needs and requirements. It's not too late, it's only too late if the Board keeps making bad decisions and people keep defending something that is obviously broken.

So, a simple yes or no will do...you truly believe that the WHOLE problem is specifically the "district", not the changing demographics.

What SPECIFICALLY bad decisions by the board are you referring to? I know this question has been raised over and over, but no one has yet been able to name specifics..it's always just "i heard this", "my neighbor said that"....

If your neighbors said "these schools are becoming increasingly populated by kids and parents who don't give a darn" they might be right. Again, what SPECIFICALLY, do you want the district to do about it? I'm fairly certain they don't sign the lease agreements or mortgage notes.

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So, a simple yes or no will do...you truly believe that the WHOLE problem is specifically the "district", not the changing demographics.

What SPECIFICALLY bad decisions by the board are you referring to? I know this question has been raised over and over, but no one has yet been able to name specifics..it's always just "i heard this", "my neighbor said that"....

If your neighbors said "these schools are becoming increasingly populated by kids and parents who don't give a darn" they might be right. Again, what SPECIFICALLY, do you want the district to do about it? I'm fairly certain they don't sign the lease agreements or mortgage notes.

I believe the decisions the district is making is aiding/facilitating the change of demographics within the communities. The most recent example I can give you is the reconfiguration.

I completely support breaking the school down into more manageable pieces within the communities. I believe this is the only alternative. However, I also believe this approach will not be given any consideration by the Board, therefore the village, or a dedicated group, needs to look at alternatives.

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Christine,

I agree completely with what you are saying.

Warrior-- I think you would do better to come clean with the real issues

and then make a plan along with the administration on how to solve them. If you don't have the experience here, then consult people who do. There are many schools in other areas that have an "inner city" demographic, yet maintain

great discipline and structure. I am sure NYC has dealt with this and more, why not use them to figure out how they turned their schools around? Is there a model school somewhere where the "inncer city" feel still produces a safe environment?

The reason I think the arrests are important is it does not give the good kids a safe feel. How safe is it when the police visit every few days? If you have a few very repeat offenders find some strict guidleines to get them out of there.

Then, in your marketing, instead of focusing on the few excellent kids who have thrived in this environment, tell us what you have done to acknowledge your problems (inner city, crime, arrest-- we know its there), and make it safe for the average kids. Thats what we want. In general most kids are not going to be the "top of the class", just average kids, wanting to be safe. This is the real issue. We want safety and think that is more important than "an effective" rating.

I learned from my experience at Lakeside (when it was somehow??? rated

excellent"), that numbers are just one thing, one small thing. The environment, which can't be numbered is more important.

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I'm a firm believer in small schools. There are a few reasons why the elementary Catholic schools have less discipline issues, however one of the biggest reasons is because in a K-8 environment you have the opportunity to build community. In addition, they are small, manageable and the older children are empowered with responsibility for the younger ones.

Several years ago I taught in Sugar Grove Ohio at Berne Union. Sugar Grove is a very small community, maybe 500-650 people. People are dirt poor and getting a job at Wendy's, 40 hours a week, was considered a successful career. I believe they are an "effective" school, however that report card does not reflect what is really going on down there. I believed all those kids were getting a very good education, the teachers really cared, the administration cared, but the most important aspect was that the community pulled together to help those kids succeed. If it weren't for the community, the majority of those kids would never have had a shot.

It was/is a K-12 school, maybe 350-400 kids. When I taught, it was the gym that divided the K-6 and the 7-12, the school since has been rebuilt. The 12th graders knew the kindergarteners, and the 9th graders all knew the 12th graders. If there was an issue, which there were several, it was quickly resolved by the administration, or the parents in the back parking lot. I remember breaking up a 10th grade fight. The one boy took a swing at the other, caught me instead and I got slammed against the wall. Somehow I ended up the hero that day, he was expelled, the entire community caught wind of it, and his behavior was modified that day because of "community" and "peer" pressure. If this happened at a larger school, it would have just been another incident. There were incidents every day, but with the number of kids, it was manageable and each incident was addressed with the proper attention. If you have a school that has chronic issues with discipline problems, break it down into manageable pieces and use your biggest asset; community.

Smaller schools can make a difference and "community" can make a bigger difference. That's what they had a Lakeside, that's why it worked.

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Question, from a discipline/community perspective; what were the schools like when they had the Forest Park Chargers and the Greenhills Pioneers? I did not live in Greenhills during that time and I am well aware of the fondness for the Greenhills High School, but what about the rest. What about the Forest Park Chargers? Was it a successful school?

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I'm a firm believer in small schools. There are a few reasons why the elementary Catholic schools have less discipline issues, however one of the biggest reasons is because in a K-8 environment you have the opportunity to build community. In addition, they are small, manageable and the older children are empowered with responsibility for the younger ones.

Several years ago I taught in Sugar Grove Ohio at Berne Union. Sugar Grove is a very small community, maybe 500-650 people. People are dirt poor and getting a job at Wendy's, 40 hours a week, was considered a successful career. I believe they are an "effective" school, however that report card does not reflect what is really going on down there. I believed all those kids were getting a very good education, the teachers really cared, the administration cared, but the most important aspect was that the community pulled together to help those kids succeed. If it weren't for the community, the majority of those kids would never have had a shot.

It was/is a K-12 school, maybe 350-400 kids. When I taught, it was the gym that divided the K-6 and the 7-12, the school since has been rebuilt. The 12th graders knew the kindergarteners, and the 9th graders all knew the 12th graders. If there was an issue, which there were several, it was quickly resolved by the administration, or the parents in the back parking lot. I remember breaking up a 10th grade fight. The one boy took a swing at the other, caught me instead and I got slammed against the wall. Somehow I ended up the hero that day, he was expelled, the entire community caught wind of it, and his behavior was modified that day because of "community" and "peer" pressure. If this happened at a larger school, it would have just been another incident. There were incidents every day, but with the number of kids, it was manageable and each incident was addressed with the proper attention. If you have a school that has chronic issues with discipline problems, break it down into manageable pieces and use your biggest asset; community.

Smaller schools can make a difference and "community" can make a bigger difference. That's what they had a Lakeside, that's why it worked.

cool.gif Christine, I agree with everything you say above, but by the time we arrived in Greenhills/Beechwoods it was already a consolidated school. My wife and I were the 5th grade room parents in 06/07 and were completely blown away when we received the class roster as 21 out of the 26 kids were from Forest Park. Apparently there were not enough kids in Greenhills to support a true "neighborhood" school so heavy inter-district transferring was already happening.

I may surprise people by saying this, but I would love to see community schools over consolidated districts. It is a better education, and the things so well stated above about the benefits of community and responsibility are 100% true. I just don't believe that in this village where we have virtually zero tax base outside of property taxes and with the way the state of Ohio addresses school funding that it is even an option in the year 2008.

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cool.gif Christine, I agree with everything you say above, but by the time we arrived in Greenhills/Beechwoods it was already a consolidated school.  My wife and I were the 5th grade room parents in 06/07 and were completely blown away when we received the class roster as 21 out of the 26 kids were from Forest Park.  Apparently there were not enough kids in Greenhills to support a true "neighborhood" school so heavy inter-district transferring was already happening.

I may surprise people by saying this, but I would love to see community schools over consolidated districts.  It is a better education, and the things so well stated above about the benefits of community and responsibility are 100% true.  I just don't believe that in this village where we have virtually zero tax base outside of property taxes and with the way the state of Ohio addresses school funding that it is even an option in the year 2008.

I'm not surprised to hear you say this at all. I've seen you out on the fields with your t-ball team, I know that you are passionate about community and I know that you believe community can make a difference. I believe it can make a difference in Greenhills and Forest Park. I don't think the Board gives the people of Forest Park enough credit and I think that's a shame because it can be a wonderful, thriving community. We can have two great communities adjacent to one another, but the Board can't see that. They refuse to use the one asset that can help the school, and the communities.

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Guys?!!!!

Greenhills Population 1970 6,092

Population (2000): 4,103.

Estimated population in July 2006: 3,675 (-10.4% change)

School Enrollment

1977 8,000 kids

1989 5,000 kids

2000 4,100 kids

2007 3,749 kids

What was it like?

We bought our home in Greenhills in 1983. Part of the reason was that, at the time, our kids could walk to school K-12. That was pretty neat. But things change, the only constant in life is change. Our children did not go to the Community Building, they went to the Middle School, and the graduated from Winton Woods High School.

Plan, execute, adapt.

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There are, without a doubt, real advantages to small community schools. There are also, without a doubt, real disadvantages and those shouldn't be forgotten in the nostalgia of back in the day.

My cottage is in a school district with approximately 400 kids K-12. Each year about 25 - 30 kids graduate. They have a ton of money, largely because seasonal residents, like me, pay a property tax rate 4X that of the locals. You read that right. My tax rate is 24 mils. The homesteaders pay 6 mils. So....these kids are flush with bucks. They each have their own laptop computers, and the list goes on. The teachers are dedicated, the community revolves around the school. It's all very cozy. The down-side? There are virtually NO opportunities for anything special - no advanced courses, no AP courses, no foreign languages, no minor sports teams, no choral music program, a very small instrumental music program, no debate team, no drama program...you get the picture. In the end, only 5 - 6 kids each year attend college and, from what I've heard local parents say, because there aren't real opportunities to be challenged in school, they are pretty much unprepared for the rigors of college. Another factor to consider is that within a community which produces such a small school-age population, there are generally no other alternatives. If your child gets somehow labelled, rightly or wrongly, so that it effects his/her school career, you have no options for him/her. A zillion years ago, when my husband was looking at practice locales, one possibility we considered (for about 10 minutes) was a town in Iowa. It was a wonderful little town and its public schools had a great reputation. Unfortunately, they were the only game in town. That made the decision for us. Even though we are public school advocates, we always wanted to be somewhere where there were other options. Clearly GH would not have that problem but it would probably mean going outside of the immediate community to get that option which would mean, IMHO, that you've changed the dynamic and are, therefore, no longer in a community school.

My point is that, if you are considering the virtues of a small community school, also consider the downside. Chances are, a GH community school would not be this small, but, I would bet that if GH had basically a K-12 there would be trade-offs which might not be all that desireable.

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Plan, execute, adapt.

Unfortunately, people are adapting.

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Chances are, a GH community school would not be this small, but, I would bet that if GH had basically a K-12 there would be trade-offs which might not be all that desireable.

I think this community would risk it.

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Here's the reality; Greenhills can't depend on the WWSD and Greenhills can't depend on the Archdiocese, so where do we go from here?

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Thank you, Christine, for asking about personal experiences growing up in our school district. ( Happy Birthday too!)

I am a proud 1979 graduate of Forest Park High School having attended the Greenhills/ Forest Park School District from kindergarten thru 12th grade. When I was born, my parents lived in an apartment on Farragut then moved to a home in Forest Park in 1963. This was a time of rapid development in Forest Park. The population was growing so fast that the schools could not be built quickly enough. To cite my own experience, I attended the first 1/2 of my kindergarten year in the Sunday school rooms at the Greenhills Presbyterian Church on Cromwell and Winton. The last 1/2 of the year, we were sent to the "new school", Forest View. Then for 1st grade, I walked to Kemper Heights Elementary School (this is the building on Waycross and Hanover). From 2nd grade to 6th grade, I rode a bus and attended Cameron Park Elementary School. Please bear in mind that my family still lived in the same house on Southland Road.

At least since the early 1960's, our school district has always been comprised of Greenhills and Forest Park along with Springfield Township. Students from all 3 communities graduated from Greenhills High School until 1974 or so when the Forest Park High School was opened to accommodate the large population of students that our district was charged to educate and offered a space to build a new larger facility. Just to offer perspective to the population's growth, one of the first Home-a-Rama home sites was held in Forest Park located on Inner Circle. You can see these houses to the right as you drive north on Winton Road prior to crossing Waycross Road.

Part of our declining school population. I believe, is a direct result of why families first moved here 40 and 50 years ago. Back then, this area was the new "frontier" much like West Chester and Mason are today. Today, families are foregoing our "older" communities (unless they have first hand knowledge or accidently happen upon us) along with others like ours because "New" is a great selling feature- new, big house ect. Years ago, this was a tempting prospect to my family, as well, although I am glad that we resisted the lure. Greenhills has so much to offer along with the long history of a strong public school system. We are fortunate as a community to have so many excellent educational options and alternatives. Public and private education must each thrive to preserve a strong, viable Greenhills. There are no winners when schools fail. Hope we do not have to learn the hard way.

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I remember breaking up a 10th grade fight. The one boy took a swing at the other, caught me instead and I got slammed against the wall. Somehow I ended up the hero that day, he was expelled, the entire community caught wind of it, and his behavior was modified that day because of "community" and "peer" pressure.

There were incidents every day, but with the number of kids, it was manageable and each incident was addressed with the proper attention. If you have a school that has chronic issues with discipline problems, break it down into manageable pieces and use your biggest asset; community.

Smaller schools can make a difference and "community" can make a bigger difference. That's what they had a Lakeside, that's why it worked.

Incidents every day??? I'm shocked. With the school population being that small, one would think that if the discipline were effective, that, eventually the kids would learn and the incidents would stop.

Are you suggesting that if a teacher got slammed against the wall in WWSD that the community wouldn't know or care about it?

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If there are no winners when schools fail, why doesn't the board answer the questions that I have been asking?

Why is the fact of the inner city population ignored? I think if you admit and accept what you have, rather than trying to hide behind statistics that don't mean much, you would be better off.

Warrior, what has the district done to appeal to typical families in the greenhills area? anything? Are they trying to learn from other schools that have been through a similiar crisis? And it is a crisis, you still have a small amount of time to turn things around, but not if you ignore them.

Just wondering about the acceptance of your population and why you don't admit the facts, but through statistics out, that don't assure or attract new families.

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WWWarrior : Posted on Jul 20 2008, 08:24 AM

School Enrollment

1977 8,000 kids

1989 5,000 kids

2000 4,100 kids

2007 3,749 kids

Winton Woods to seek Nov. levy Last Updated: 11:43 am | Monday, May 19, 2008

Winton Woods schools serve 3,800 students of Greenhills, Forest Park, and Springfield Township and provides busing and other services to 1,000 private and parochial school students.

The last data I was provided indicated approx. 200 Community (charter-public) + approx 100 home schoolers are on top of the 1000 private and parochial; a total of approx 1300 students in school year 2007-2008.

How does private, parochial, community and home school trend with school year in your data? Is the number static, increasing or decreasing?

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Warrior, what has the district done to appeal to typical families in the greenhills area? anything? Are they trying to learn from other schools that have been through a similiar crisis?

cool.gif I believe I have a "typical Greenhills family". I am a professional (not so young!) and have a rising 9th grader, a rising 7th grader and a rising 1st grader.

The consolidation allowed my then 6th grader to have band on a full time basis instead of 2 days a week with traveling teachers, a full time every day GTE class vs. being bussed to the White Building twice a week, the opportunity to be in classes with all kids of a similiar level of ability which allowed them to cover more material and faster, and allowed him to take advantage of teachers who could share feedback and practices on a daily basis. Those are all advantages that benefitted this Greenhills family.

On the other hand, I send my soon to be 1st grader to CCS. Why? Because I am not a fan of taking neighborhood schools away from K-4 and highly value a Christian education at the earlier grades as my two oldest received. The consolidation has its pros & cons.

I have learned to appreciate the thoughts and opinions of those who feel differently by getting to know some of them and being so very impressed by their energy and love for this community. I cannot question the arguments that many people are leaving as a way of "voting with their feet". There are things that the consolidation brought about that benefitted all in the WWCS district.

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Incidents every day??? I'm shocked. With the school population being that small, one would think that if the discipline were effective, that, eventually the kids would learn and the incidents would stop.

Are you suggesting that if a teacher got slammed against the wall in WWSD that the community wouldn't know or care about it?

Due to the small amount of kids they were able to address almost every incident in a very strict manner. A kid did not get away with cussing, or graffiti on the walls (small incidents compared to WW). Teachers were not being slammed against the wall every day, so if you want to take my post out of context feel free.

I still remember one of my students writing inside a locker in the girls locker room. Someone told the Principal, they contacted the parent, the parent brought her toothbrush to the school and she proceeded to scrub the entire locker during study hall and after school.

Did we have troubled kids? Absolutely. However, the small community atmosphere helped many of them get through. The incidents occurring in the WWSD requires more than a toothbrush.

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Are you suggesting that if a teacher got slammed against the wall in WWSD that the community wouldn't know or care about it?

Would people care about it? Sure. Would they be surprised? No. The point of the story was that the student's behavior was "modified" because of "community" and peer pressure. I don't believe that would be the case in the WWSD with the current set-up.

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Are you saying that the behavior wouldn't be addressed effectively? Or, that it would not be addressed by the community?

If you are saying the latter, who cares? But, if you are saying the former, that's a pretty big accusation without apparent foundation.

BTW, I took nothing out of context. It is quoted exactly as you wrote it. You said that there were incidents every day. My posting did not add or subtract from that at all. I did not suggest that teachers were being slammed against the wall every day. That reference was in the second paragraph. Different paragraph, change in subject.

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Are you saying that the behavior wouldn't be addressed effectively?

That's a good question for Warrior and the parents who have left the school district.

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BTW, I took nothing out of context.  It is quoted exactly as you wrote it.  You said that there were incidents every day.  My posting did not add or subtract from that at all.  I did not suggest that teachers were being slammed against the wall every day.  That reference was in the second paragraph.  Different paragraph, change in subject.

Let's then clarify; the "incidents" at Berne Union were on a different level than the WWSD "incidents". For the most part, it was harmless. The slam against the wall was very unique and "shocking" to the community, and let me add "unintentional". I do not believe that this incident would be as "shocking" if it happened in the WWSD. In fact, I think most people would probably roll their eyes and say "what's new". It's an unfortunate fact.

In addition GoBucks, I'm not going to keep going round and round with you. You don't live here, you don't have a stake in this. What you say, or think, or believe has no impact on this village, or the school system. I'm really not sure why you're so concerned. I'm more interested in hearing from the residents, specifically those who do attend the schools. I just ask that people be open and honest when addressing the issues.

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Thank you, Christine, for asking about personal experiences growing up in our school district. ( Happy Birthday too!)

Thanks Paula for the HB and I appreciate your response.

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The last data I was provided indicated approx. 200 Community (charter-public) + approx 100 home schoolers are on top of the 1000 private and parochial; a total of approx 1300 students in school year 2007-2008.

How does private, parochial, community and home school trend with school year in your data? Is the number static, increasing or decreasing?

Hi iPod, haven't seen you for a while.

Your numbers, including the charter school and home school students appear correct. The other numbers from a press release were generalized for the media.

I don't have have long term data, meaning back to the 1970's, but the number of parohical students has been fairly steady at 1,000 to 1,100 since the 90's. I guess with an overall declining population trend that that would actually be a net increase. But it's pretty much the same number of kids. If I can find my copy of the 2003 Cinti. Archdiosese Deanery Report, I might be able to give more firm numbers. But given the closing and consolidating going on among parohical schools in Hamilton County, the long term numbers would likely be down substantially from their historical highs in 70's and early 80's, like our enrollment.

The first real hard number on home school students from the mid to late 1990's was around 50, so that being at your stated 100 makes sense. As does the charter school number relative to the amount of money deducted from our State funding for charter students.

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Relative to absolutely nothing...just an observation on home schoolers.

At the Freedom Center, we have to cast lots to see who gets the home school groups. The looser takes the group. To a person, everyone hates taking the home schoolers. Why? And this was a surprise to me - but, as a rule, they are surly, angry, unresponsive, and disrepectful. It's curious considering the reasons parents who home school so often give for home schooling their kids.

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