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School levy- what is truly at stake

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Catholic programs have no real and objective measurement by which they can proclaim their excellence.  They are excellent because they tell us that they are excellent.  Say it enough times and we have to believe it.

So standardized test scores are meaningless? OGTs, SATs, ACTs.

Some one needs to tell the US Dept of Ed they have been duped by the private institutions?

I understand that private institutions do not have the same level of transparency to the general public as the public schools. But to say to the only thing we have to go on is their say-so that they excel academically is ludicrous.

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Bigdog, why can't you make a point without bringing my name into it?

But Three Hats hit the nail on the head, in a post that was very well written.

And typically, you back down from your perch and just claim that you are out there advocating for choices or that sort of thing. "1st ammendment'. yes,yes

But it is true....

Catholic programs have no real and objective measurement by which they can proclaim their excellence. They are excellent because they tell us that they are excellent. Say it enough times and we have to believe it.

I would love to handpick 20 students of mine to send to one of your schools. Your school (no question) would ship all 20 back by Christmas. Why? Because the Catholic programs aren't for everybody and you simply can't handle the wide range of students that are in our schools.. today.. in 2009.

The Catholic education tradition (today) is not really out there to minister to all children, but to those children whose parents and students agree to pay tuition and follow their rules. What do you do with students that don't or won't or can't do that? Not everyone in GH has 8500 dollars lying around.

This isn't 1959 when Sister Mary Sylvia would just rap your knuckles with a ruler or Father Aloysious would give you 10 Hail Marys to say. Today's student would tell both to "F" off. And of course, this would end their career at your school. Catholic schools do a great job of educating students that would do a GREAT JOB wherever they really went.

But the real problem isn't rooted in things that you say or do on here.

----

First, Paula. Again, you did what you could and fought the good fight. I can't blame your efforts for the lack of effort by the residents of Forest Park.

But this old tired line of the "Board has to listen and change" is really way overblown to the extent that this is why the levy hasn't passed. Again, we have recieved a 55% YES vote in the part of the district where 91% of our students live. True. We still lost. It's hard to "change" to please folks that don't have students in the district or have any real connection to what we do.

But isn't it time to call out Forest Park? Voting at a rate LESS THAN ONE HALF that of the other two communities? Why? 14% turnout? If we just had 20% turnout, this levy campaign would be over. It still would have lagged behind the 32% in GH and SOTL, but still aweful when you consider that 80% of the students that we teach live there.

Sure, we have to do things differently. But I think that we are voting to send a message to "past boards" for what they did.

No matter. Forest Park (and really all) parents need to show up and vote in November. If they do not vote and they do not care, their students get what they voted for. It's really that simple. The teaching staff is not going to spend hours and hours fundraising for things or paying for clubs out of their own pockets. They are doing a lot of that now. There is not going to be unlimited "free" after school tutoring as those teachers are going to have to focus on resume building.

The parents have only themselves to blame if they do not get out there and fight for their children's programs... or they can pay A LOT MORE in tuition to send them to a school like St. X where they will have a lot less of a voice. Their fate is in their hands.

Equalizer -

1. There goes another 3 votes.

2. You know nothing about Catholic or private education.

3. Did you know that Catholic and private school students do better on ACT and SAT than public school students. That is statistically, more private school students are above the average scores than public schools.

4. Catholic schools do not "hand pick" any students. Any student who wants to come may come. Trust me, if vouchers were available to all - WWHS would look like a ghost town.

5. Students are held to high standards - if they don't meet those standards - they are asked to leave - is that not what happens at your job? Catholic schools and private schools do not set the kids up for failure. Discipline, accountability, strong work habits, and dependability are all traits that employers look for!

6. There are no kids that today would tell a private school teacher to "f off". That is exactly why WWSD cannot pass a levy.

7. Sr. Mary and Fr. Al no longer teach in private schools. The Catholic school teachers are highly trained professionals. Just like at WW.

8. I would take your 20 kids and send them back to you as gentlemen or ladies and scholars!

9. You complain about the voters of GH, ST and FP. If you gave them a product to be proud of, they would be out in droves to vote just as they do in school districts that earn the coveted "excellent" rating. Teach harder my son.

10. The board needs to put a muzzle on you.

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Because the Catholic programs aren't for everybody and you simply can't handle the wide range of students that are in our schools.. today.. in 2009.

The Catholic education tradition (today) is not really out there to minister to all children, but to those children whose parents and students agree to pay tuition and follow their rules.

I have generally stayed out of these threads because I have no personal experience with the local Catholic and public schools, although I am a product of both elsewhere. I must disagree with a theme I have seen several times, which is that Catholic schools are ill suited to serve the needs of disadvantaged students.

Catholic schools have a long and proud history of serving students from a wide variety of backgrounds and often do operate successfully in very difficult neighborhoods. This, of course, says nothing about whether any individual local Catholic school in this area fits that profile. Regardless, I think it is inaccurate to suggest or imply that, as a general rule, public schools are the only ones with the capacity to educate disadvantaged students.

See for example:

http://www.heritage.org/research/urbanissu...oad/21717_1.pdf

and

Andrew Greeley, Minority Students in Catholic High Schools, New Brunswick, NJ, Transaction Books, 1982

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9. You complain about the voters of GH, ST and FP. If you gave them a product to be proud of, they would be out in droves to vote just as they do in school districts that earn the coveted "excellent" rating. Teach harder my son.

Even schools with "excellent" ratings struggle to pass levies.

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"Catholic schools do not "hand pick" any students. Any student who wants to come may come. Trust me."

....If I trust you on that one , will you buy a bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn?

" Students are held to high standards - if they don't meet those standards - they are asked to leave - is that not what happens at your job? "

....not under current Ohio law governing the right to a public education.

" There are no kids that today would tell a private school teacher to "f off". "

....since they'd be shipped right out to their local public option.

"I would take your 20 kids and send them back to you....."

....(period) This is a truer statement.

BD - If you must give the facts on private vs. public, please don't "color " them.

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"Surprising as it may be, most private schools are not very selective. A study of the nation's Catholic schools concluded that the typical institution accepted 88 percent of the students who applied. Other research in D.C., Dayton, and New York private schools found that only one percent of parents reported their children were denied admission because of a failed admissions test. Moreover, the academic and demographic backgrounds of students who use vouchers to attend private school across the country are very similar to those who don't.

Private schools don't significantly alter their student populations by expelling low-achieving or troublesome students, either. One study found that, Catholic high schools dismiss fewer than two students per year, on average. While it is true that every student is officially entitled to a publicly funded education, students in public schools are regularly expelled. According to the U.S. Department of Education, roughly one percent of all public school students are expelled in a year, and an additional 0.6 percent are segregated into specialized academies. That's more than in Catholic and other private schools. Moreover, public schools actually contract out 1.3 percent of their disabled students to private schools."

Jay P. Greene , Oklahoma's Education Myths, August 01, 2007

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"Surprising as it may be, most private schools are not very selective. A study of the nation's Catholic schools concluded that the typical institution accepted 88 percent of the students who applied. Other research in D.C., Dayton, and New York private schools found that only one percent of parents reported their children were denied admission because of a failed admissions test. Moreover, the academic and demographic backgrounds of students who use vouchers to attend private school across the country are very similar to those who don't.

Private schools don't significantly alter their student populations by expelling low-achieving or troublesome students, either. One study found that, Catholic high schools dismiss fewer than two students per year, on average. While it is true that every student is officially entitled to a publicly funded education, students in public schools are regularly expelled. According to the U.S. Department of Education, roughly one percent of all public school students are expelled in a year, and an additional 0.6 percent are segregated into specialized academies. That's more than in Catholic and other private schools. Moreover, public schools actually contract out 1.3 percent of their disabled students to private schools."

Jay P. Greene , Oklahoma's Education Myths, August 01, 2007

Jay Greene is a credible source, insofar as someone in academia is. Just as I am very skeptical of most liberal research that comes out of the universities, I have to question this report a little bit.

First,

Catholic schools accept 88% of those that applied. And that is just the number that applied. If you don't have the 10K to go to St. X, you probably aren't going to bother to even fill out the application... but we will go with 88%.

Public schools accept 100% of those that apply to their schools. Even if you're homeless, Federal law has long established a "property right" to education for all students.

Why aren't Catholic schools accepting 100%? The answer, I suggest, is a large part of the problem with public schools. 12% (1 out of 8 students) account for about 80% of our discipline issues... and this snowballs into the other 88%.

This, as you biz people know, is the famous 80/20 rule in action! 80% of your customer problems come from 20% of the customers. Sprint (Cell Phone) solved that a few years ago by "firing" the customers that called them the most.. complaining.

Catholic schools don't even let them in the door. We have to deal with them.

So when it says that we use "alternative means" more than the Catholics, I have no doubt. Catholic schools, again, don't let them in or they ask them to leave.

-----

And is there a difference between a "forced expulsion" or a polite request for the family to withdraw the student? If I am running a Catholic school, I'd be mindful of the definitions... and they are critical here. A company might only claim to fire 2 people a year, but neglect to mention the 200 that were "asked to resign". An expulsion might prevent them from enrolling their student in another private option... so you really have to keep your options open. If St. Bart's throws a student out, Sacred Heart might find a way to deny them access, etc.

In Ohio, if you are expelled from a public school, you can't enroll that student in another public school during the period of expulsion. But again, expulsion just about never happens unless your student is caught with a gun or a kilo of cocaine on them.

-----

I'd be interested in reading the specific studies that have been referenced.

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[equalizer] expulsion just about never happens unless your student is caught with a gun or a kilo of cocaine on them.

AND NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY

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Expulsion should almost never be used. Other harsh punishments, sure. Expul-sion, except for the most egregious behavior, is arguably the worst solution for the community at large. Do we want a bunch of very troubled kids running the streets at all hours? Or, would it better serve the student and the community if the kid is placed in, say, an alternative program that may possibly reach the kid without interferring with the genuine education of all of the other students. I understand the desire to inflict serious punishment but, in the end, the local community may be better served by finding a way to keep the kid occupied and possibly something will cause him/her to become engaged in a positive way.

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Equalizer, thanks for the thoughtful response. It is my impression that selectivity bias has been studied and that even after you control for the fact that a private school and/or the parents choosing a school may self-select into a higher performing group, that measureable differences in performance often remain. See for example, http://research.chicagogsb.edu/economy/res...articles/95.pdf where the author finds that not only are Catholic schools able to succeed with disadvantaged urban minority populations, but that these are the students for whom Catholic schools have the greatest impact.

I am no educational expert, I just try to investigate the assumptions people use in these debates. I have gotten the impression in the levy debate that some WWSD supporters have taken the position that whatever deficiencies exist in the schools are simply an inevitable reflection of the student population they are forced to educate. This, in turn, leads to comments that 1) nothing can be done about the problem without spending huge amounts of money and 2) only public schools deal with these issues so any comparison to or learning from private schools is impossible.

I am simply attempting to challenge these assumptions, because such views can lead to complacency. There are successes out there that we can learn from, presumably in both public and private settings. If a levy were coupled with a well thought out plan for innovation based on such lessons, I would think it would be better received that a levy whose essential message is that the district needs more money to maintain the status quo.

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Today... I have a list of chores a mile long, them lovely kids to tend to, and I can't wait to get to the produce store... I think some fried eggplant is in order.... yummy... rolleyes.gif

Should anyone want my help... on anything just send me an email... I will see what I can do.

Thanks... Peace and Be Blessed.

Kay Expressions,

How does it feel playing Volleyball in left field during a swim meet?

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Jay Greene is a credible source, insofar as someone in academia is. Just as I am very skeptical of most liberal research that comes out of the universities, I have to question this report a little bit.

First,

Catholic schools accept 88% of those that applied. And that is just the number that applied. If you don't have the 10K to go to St. X, you probably aren't going to bother to even fill out the application... but we will go with 88%.

Public schools accept 100% of those that apply to their schools. Even if you're homeless, Federal law has long established a "property right" to education for all students.

Why aren't Catholic schools accepting 100%? The answer, I suggest, is a large part of the problem with public schools. 12% (1 out of 8 students) account for about 80% of our discipline issues... and this snowballs into the other 88%.

This, as you biz people know, is the famous 80/20 rule in action! 80% of your customer problems come from 20% of the customers. Sprint (Cell Phone) solved that a few years ago by "firing" the customers that called them the most.. complaining.

Catholic schools don't even let them in the door. We have to deal with them.

So when it says that we use "alternative means" more than the Catholics, I have no doubt. Catholic schools, again, don't let them in or they ask them to leave.

-----

And is there a difference between a "forced expulsion" or a polite request for the family to withdraw the student? If I am running a Catholic school, I'd be mindful of the definitions... and they are critical here. A company might only claim to fire 2 people a year, but neglect to mention the 200 that were "asked to resign". An expulsion might prevent them from enrolling their student in another private option... so you really have to keep your options open. If St. Bart's throws a student out, Sacred Heart might find a way to deny them access, etc.

In Ohio, if you are expelled from a public school, you can't enroll that student in another public school during the period of expulsion. But again, expulsion just about never happens unless your student is caught with a gun or a kilo of cocaine on them.

-----

I'd be interested in reading the specific studies that have been referenced.

Equalizer - you seriously do not have any idea what Catholic education is about. You continue to alienate private school parents.

Why the board of education does not muzzle you is something that I do not understand.

There goes another 3 votes.

Why do you think you are helping the cause?

You are ______________________________________ most people say an idiot.

The Catholic schools that I know of will accept any student. That student must meet the standards that the school deems necessary for their success in society.

If you do not meet the standards that the state deems necessary for improvement you will be asked to leave. Why not the students? If they cannot discipline themselves, how are you helping them succeed if you do not work with them and if they do not comply, ask them to leave.

This is not a knock on Kentucky, but you must have a degree from a Kentucky school.

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This is not a knock on Kentucky, but you must have a degree from a Kentucky school.

isn't that a little like saying, "no offense...but, you're as ugly as a mud fence post?"

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isn't that a little like saying, "no offense...but, you're as ugly as a mud fence post?"

Similar! tongue.gif

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I disagree. In a public school where I worked, a student was expelled and not allowed to reenroll for 90 days because of fighting - basically he beat another student to the point that put him in a coma for 2 weeks. The expelled student was sent to Juvenile detention facility - the one on Bohnam Rd- to be evaluated and educated for the 90 days. After that time he was re-evaluated and home-schooled by the district for the rest of the school year.

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He may have been on an IEP. Rules for expulsion (or at least the consequences) are different for students on IEP's. Since he recieved home schooling, he probably was deemed to be too dangerous to be educated in the regular school, BUT the law still requires the school to provide educational services to a student on an IEP.

Of course, I have no idea. Just speculating based on the circumstances that you laid out there.

The law is constantly trying to strike a balance between the rights of students on IEP's and the need to maintain safe order of the school. Hamilton used to have tons of IEP students out on "Home instruction" because they 1) had money at the time and 2) had a zero tolerance approach toward poor behavior.

Of course, as money gets tight, options like this dry up and those students may wind up back in regular school... based solely on the fact that they have to be "serviced". Not unlike the County Jail problem that we have.

I think that the courts have failed miserably here as well. This is adult crime which should have earned him a much longer prison sentence.

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